Golf Professionals and improperly fit clubs

[johnnymarlboro]

So I read this article the other day on MSN:
Mathew Goggin determined to get his PGA Tour card back - News | FOX Sports on MSN

I know this is a tough game, and the PGA is a damn tough tour, but is it just me or does it seem a little ridiculous that it took a touring professional like a year and a half to realize that his clubs were not fit correctly for him? Too long and 4 degrees upright seems like alot for a pro not to notice. Not to mention all the coaches and everything these guys have around them. Losing his card, and all that money just for something like not checking his new clubs' specs has got to hurt. Makes me want to run out and get all my stuff checked. Thoughts?

 

[Richie3Jack]

I read this article somewhere else about an hour ago.

They must've gotten the 0.6 cm = 2* more upright incorrect. No way that can happen. According to Wishon, 1/2" = 1*. So, 1" = 1*

But 1" doesn't equal 1 cm. So 0.6 cm is about 0.2 inches.

My guess is that the writer made a mistake and needed to put in 0.6 *inches* not centimeters.

Goggin was using Taylor Made R7 TP irons before going to Callaway. The 'standard' specs on those irons measures a 5-iron with a 60.5* lie angle. Callaway irons are usually at 61.0* per 5-iron.

Let's say those were the specs of those Taylor Made irons. In order to be 2* more upright, he would need irons that were effectively 62.5* for a 5-iron. So if they added 0.6 inches and the Callaways were already 0.5* more upright to begin with, that would approximately make those irons almost 2* effectively more upright.

And when you are competing at that level, I do believe that can throw a golfer off.










3JACK

 

[Hayes9801]

I wonder how many games Callaway has ruined in this way. I remember seeing Paul Azinger say essentially the same thing. I believe he had been playing a set of MacGregor blades, and he said they pushed him into their initial iron model (don't remember the name) because it was the current product. He hated them.

 

[trickyric67]

I'm not a Callaway fan or hater but Phil is not having a problem with them and Zinger went from no offset blades to huge offset cavity back irons. This to me is more about a players greed getting the better of him more so than the clubs. He didn't have to take the contract.

 

[birly-shirly]

Goggin himself says in that article that you've got to be wired differently to make it as a touring golfer. And I think it was one of Bob Rotella's insights that, when faced with failure, the successful athlete always finds a way to not blame themselves. Is "externalisation" the term?

Matthew Goggin might just have provided a Class A case study in the art.

 

[twitch127]

The reason this can happen is that most PGA Tour coaches have no idea about clubfitting and wouldn't know a lie angle from a plane angle. They "assume" that the equipment is correct but they never check it themselves. If the player doesn't visit the tour van for a while who is going to notice the incorrect specs?

 

[Richie3Jack]

True story.

Back in my freshman year of college, before titanium hit the big time. I had a Callaway Warbird driver and 3-wood.

Killed the 3-wood, just murdered that thing. In fact, there were times I hit it just as far as my driver.

Couldn't hit the driver a lick. Couldn't stop hooking the crap out of it and just didn't feel right.

Finally, we measured the flex of the shafts.

3-wood measured exactly what it was supposed to, X-Stiff.

The driver was also *labeled* X-Stiff. But when we measured it the flex came to about the equivalent of a Ladies Stiff flex.

Thanks, Callaway.

I'd actually consider buying their equipment again, but I'd make sure that all of the specs are up to snuff.




3JACK

 

[softconsult]

The reason this can happen is that most PGA Tour coaches have no idea about clubfitting and wouldn't know a lie angle from a plane angle. They "assume" that the equipment is correct but they never check it themselves. If the player doesn't visit the tour van for a while who is going to notice the incorrect specs?

Is that based on what you feel, or on what you actually know? You did a survey maybe? Show us the proof.
​

 

[mgranato]

True story.

Back in my freshman year of college, before titanium hit the big time. I had a Callaway Warbird driver and 3-wood.

Killed the 3-wood, just murdered that thing. In fact, there were times I hit it just as far as my driver.

Couldn't hit the driver a lick. Couldn't stop hooking the crap out of it and just didn't feel right.

Finally, we measured the flex of the shafts.

3-wood measured exactly what it was supposed to, X-Stiff.

The driver was also *labeled* X-Stiff. But when we measured it the flex came to about the equivalent of a Ladies Stiff flex.

Thanks, Callaway.

I'd actually consider buying their equipment again, but I'd make sure that all of the specs are up to snuff.




3JACK

Equally misleading is putting a club in a freq analyzer and using that to determine the flex of the shaft.

Back in the day, Callaway was notorious for mislabeling up their shaft flexes.

 

[gmbtempe]

From what I remember Callaway put nothing into their shafts until Titleist came out with the 975d which had multiple different upgraded shafts for no extra money (think they had a graffaloy and proforce, aldila).

 

[Richie3Jack]

From what I remember Callaway put nothing into their shafts until Titleist came out with the 975d which had multiple different upgraded shafts for no extra money (think they had a graffaloy and proforce, aldila).

The shafts in question on those Warbirds were stock Aldila shafts. I remember liking Aldila back when the HM-40 shaft came out, like in the late 80's, but haven't liked any of their shafts since.

Titleist made a major impact on the equipment game once they decided to compete in the irons, drivers, wedges and putter markets.






3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

Equally misleading is putting a club in a freq analyzer and using that to determine the flex of the shaft.

Back in the day, Callaway was notorious for mislabeling up their shaft flexes.

I can honestly say I don't miss those days





3JACK

 

[gmbtempe]

The shafts in question on those Warbirds were stock Aldila shafts. I remember liking Aldila back when the HM-40 shaft came out, like in the late 80's, but haven't liked any of their shafts since.

Titleist made a major impact on the equipment game once they decided to compete in the irons, drivers, wedges and putter markets.






3JACK

The Aldila though was the cheap "RCH" I believe that probably cost Callaway 0.25 cents, the one in the Titleist was definitely higher quality.

Its amazing what a free market will do, Callaway would still have those cheap arse shafts if no one forced them into something more competitive.

 

[Virtuoso]

True story.

Back in my freshman year of college, before titanium hit the big time. I had a Callaway Warbird driver and 3-wood.

Killed the 3-wood, just murdered that thing. In fact, there were times I hit it just as far as my driver.

Couldn't hit the driver a lick. Couldn't stop hooking the crap out of it and just didn't feel right.

Finally, we measured the flex of the shafts.

3-wood measured exactly what it was supposed to, X-Stiff.

The driver was also *labeled* X-Stiff. But when we measured it the flex came to about the equivalent of a Ladies Stiff flex.

Thanks, Callaway.

I'd actually consider buying their equipment again, but I'd make sure that all of the specs are up to snuff.




3JACK

Richie, did you call Callaway's customer service to get them to rectify the situation?

 

[twitch127]

Is that based on what you feel, or on what you actually know? You did a survey maybe? Show us the proof.

I was told this by a source who has spent years on PGA Tour Practice ranges so I guess he would know better than anybody. He is also one of the foremost experts on clubfitting in the world and very well respected. Brian, what are your thoughts on this topic

 

[Matt 4-L]

True story.

Back in my freshman year of college, before titanium hit the big time. I had a Callaway Warbird driver and 3-wood.

Killed the 3-wood, just murdered that thing. In fact, there were times I hit it just as far as my driver.

Couldn't hit the driver a lick. Couldn't stop hooking the crap out of it and just didn't feel right.

Finally, we measured the flex of the shafts.

3-wood measured exactly what it was supposed to, X-Stiff.

The driver was also *labeled* X-Stiff. But when we measured it the flex came to about the equivalent of a Ladies Stiff flex.

Thanks, Callaway.

I'd actually consider buying their equipment again, but I'd make sure that all of the specs are up to snuff.




3JACK

I worked in a golf shop when Callaway came out with those drivers and we would laugh at how flexible those"firm" shafts were, it was common knowledge in the industry that they were nothing more than a wet noodle.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Equally misleading is putting a club in a freq analyzer and using that to determine the flex of the shaft.

Back in the day, Callaway was notorious for mislabeling up their shaft flexes.

How would you measure the flex of a shaft if a frequency analyzer is misleading?

 

[softconsult]

I went back and read the article about Goggin. This may not be the only article about this. Caveat number one is that it is an article written by someone who likes golf, but is may not be educated about golf equipment. In this article, he writes that Goggin's clubs were too long, nothing more specific. I guess it could happen, but think about it. How many of us on this forum couldn't tell the difference in longer clubs, even 1/2" longer. I certainly can. It's obvious. Wouldn't you at the very least take the new 5 iron and set it beside the old 5 iron? I mean, if you are a PGA Pro, it's only your career at stake. Sounds like whining to me or as Birly said, blame anything but yourself.

Now I'm the guy, who started the thread titled, "Pretty Dam Stupid" concerning me not figuring out that my e-Bay putter had a lie angle of 65 Degrees! But I putted pretty good with it.

As far as PGA Tour coaches not knowing a lie angle from a plane angle, I don't buy that either. I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of them paid their dues before somehow got to that level. They may not be good clubfitters, but they know about lie angles.

 

[gspmjp]

This brings to mind an old academy live with Dr Jim Suttie and Mark Wilson. They were explaining about swing changes for Mark basiclly going to a steeper swing. A caller asks about the changes they made in Mark's clubs to match his new swing. They both said they hadn't thought about lie angle but it was maybe something they should look into. This is a tour winner and a top 100 teacher. It struck me that they didn't even think about lie angle that I still remember it.

 

[teacherfitter]

Although it has got a little better, the standards from one manufacture to another were different enough so that when a tour player would change equipment companies quite often their game would go in the tank for awhile. When you would factor in the tolerances that some manufactures had from their own standards it could get pretty scary. Can you imagine the dilemma for the mechanics of the world if 3/16 were not truly 3/16!
With all of this being said, you would think the tour player or their coach would begin to wonder when ball flights begin to change with the same motion.