Golf swing and playground swing

[hiroshiro]

Golf can do strange things once the passion for golf is strongly entrenched and seemingly even obscure the mind of a well known engineer and war hero. Even a simple calculation should have shown him the truth.

mandrin:

Golf is a potent force indeed. It makes people see only what they want to see; believe only what they want to believe.

Thank you for your efforts in shedding some needed light on these issues.

hiro

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin,
Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood the reference. So. now I have an additional query. Is this scenario correct? The amount of "pressure" is dependent on the velocity and the mass of the clubhead at impact, which produces a certain amount of ball speed. In order to change the amount of "pressure", it would be necessary to change the clubhead velocity or mass. Is that the idea?

Biffer,

If we put aside several important factors related to geometry, we are indeed left with the respective masses of ball and clubhead and the velocity of the clubhead as factors determining ball departure velocity.

One could for completeness include any force exerted by the golfer through the shaft onto the ball during impact. However it can be safely ignored being too small to be reckoned with.

 

[rundmc]

Biffer,

If we put aside several important factors related to geometry, we are indeed left with the respective masses of ball and clubhead and the velocity of the clubhead as factors determining ball departure velocity.

One could for completeness include any force exerted by the golfer through the shaft onto the ball during impact. However it can be safely ignored being too small to be reckoned with.

Mandy,

You conclusions seem plausable . . . . but how would this change anything about how we were to swing the golf club? Are we to abandon any "mechanics" as a result? Flat left wrist? Hitting Down Out and Forward? Maintaining Lag Pressure?

In your mind does this change anything about the "fundamentals" that instructors teach?

R

 

[mandrin]

Mandy,

You conclusions seem plausable . . . . but how would this change anything about how we were to swing the golf club? Are we to abandon any "mechanics" as a result? Flat left wrist? Hitting Down Out and Forward? Maintaining Lag Pressure?

In your mind does this change anything about the "fundamentals" that instructors teach?R

Run DMC, I like your picture above, looking pretty smart indeed.
You are my preferred dork who loves ‘rappin’ around the place.
I would be delighted to have YOUR opinion on the subject.

 

[rundmc]

Run DMC, I like your picture above, looking pretty smart indeed.
You are my preferred dork who loves ‘rappin’ around the place.
I would be delighted to have YOUR opinion on the subject.

Didn't really change anything for me. Even if the shaft doesn't contribute anything . . . seems to me results are better if you act like it DOES.

Hey found this picture of you from back in the day when you won the Dungeons and Dragons Smackdown.

 

[EdZ]

EdZ, I had hoped that, having an engineering background, you would have stayed away from answering right out of the ‘book’.

Lag pressure, staying on plane, over acceleration, improper aiming point , etc., are all very important but don’t address the essential issue here, which is:

Can one during the 0.0004 sec of impact interval increase ball departure velocity by applying force, hence accelerating, through the impact interval.

EdZ, let’s simply agree not to agree, since I feel that you are not quite open to the science involved explaining collision phenomena.

Not by 'adding' force, by resisting impact decel. No question impact slows things down, and proper support of impact allows you to decrease the amount of slow down vs simply 'bouncing' off the ball. I don't think we disagree mandrin.

 

[mandrin]

Not by 'adding' force, by resisting impact decel. No question impact slows things down, and proper support of impact allows you to decrease the amount of slow down vs simply 'bouncing' off the ball. I don't think we disagree mandrin.

Ed, can you resist impact deceleration without applying force?
Applying force and resisting impact deceleration is equivalent.
I know it is here again feel in conflict with real, but so be it.

 

[rundmc]

Ed, can you resist impact deceleration without applying force?
Applying force and resisting impact deceleration is equivalent.
I know it is here again feel in conflict with real, but so be it.

Mandy . . . Question. If you think that "applying force and resisting impact deceleration is equivalent." Then what would your position be on Mr. K's premise that Lag Pressure has NO RELEASE POINT? Are you saying that the inertia of the lagging sweetspot on the right forefinger (pp3) all the way to both arms straight is not real but mere feel?

At what point does the player give up control to the "free wheeling" clubhead? When do we DROPOUT in this process?

 

[mandrin]

Randy, please do swing away with whatever you feel is proper procedure.
But don’t use feel to put up a scientific argument, being a waste of time.

 

[rundmc]

Randy, please do swing away with whatever you feel is proper procedure.
But don’t use feel to put up a scientific argument, being a waste of time.

Wouldn't that be Rundy? Or were you saying I make you Randy?

Anyway . . . I wasn't making a scientific arguement. I was asking you what I thought was a legitimate question. I have not attacked your theory or your science. I was asking you a question. I don't make scientific arguements. I ain't no scientist.

I was just asking if the clubhead is moving independent of the shaft and forward of the shaft through impact what is the pressure that is still felt in the hands?

If you feel that answering my questions is a waste of time, I'm cool with that. My questions were simply questions not statements.

You are a little touchy. Have you come down with a case of the toxic shock syndrome?

 

[mandrin]

mandrin:

Golf is a potent force indeed. It makes people see only what they want to see; believe only what they want to believe.

Thank you for your efforts in shedding some needed light on these issues.

hiro

hiroshiro, I agree, golf is rather special.

I do appreciate your kind compliment,

a refreshing change to some posts.

 

[mandrin]

Not by 'adding' force, by resisting impact decel. No question impact slows things down, and proper support of impact allows you to decrease the amount of slow down vs simply 'bouncing' off the ball. I don't think we disagree mandrin.

EdZ,

The only way any golfer can interact with the ball is via the shaft.

The only way a shaft can exert force on a golf ball is by being in a bent condition.

A bent condition is accomplished/maintained only by exerting a torque on the handle.

Hence, the only way a golfer can interact with the ball is by exerting a torque on the handle.

Ed, in view of the arguments above, can you explain what you mean by ‘resisting impact deceleration’ and how you are able to do this without applying force (torque) to the butt end of the shaft?

PS., I am ignoring completely many other important arguments such as speed of sound, human reaction time, shaft bending forward at impact, extremely large impact forces, etc, just to keep discussion solely focused your argument.

 

[EdZ]

Re: shaft bending forward before impact - why do 'you' feel that MUST happen before impact, and not after?

What variables are you assuming?

Where 'center' is? Where 'in line' (maximum radius, the 'cracked whip') is? the rate/direction/acceleration of the forces involved?

Of course we apply force to the handle, via our hands and transfered through the body.

Resisting impact due to a 'still bent' clubshaft that should not be 'in line' until both arms straight, after impact (of course impact itself alters this).

Very simply, we disagree about where the 'in line' condition is intended to occur, when the 'spoke is straight'.

 

[mandrin]

Re: shaft bending forward before impact - why do 'you' feel that MUST happen before impact, and not after?

What variables are you assuming?

Where 'center' is? Where 'in line' (maximum radius, the 'cracked whip') is? the rate/direction/acceleration of the forces involved?

Of course we apply force to the handle, via our hands and transfered through the body.

Resisting impact due to a 'still bent' clubshaft that should not be 'in line' until both arms straight, after impact (of course impact itself alters this).

Very simply, we disagree about where the 'in line' condition is intended to occur, when the 'spoke is straight'.

I tried to get your opinion on one single issue and tried to be very precise about formulating the question knowing very well the entrenched opinions about this matter.

You mention various factors but there is no clear answer to my question. However it appears that you consider resisting impact to be keeping a bent condition for the shaft prior to and through impact.

Hence you do not feel to ‘add’ additional force to the shaft at impact; there is already the ‘bent’ condition of the shaft to resist impact deceleration.

EdZ, is that correct as interpretation?

 

[EdZ]

Fair enough I suppose - the loaded 'bent' shaft, supported by the pressure points in the hands, which have not over accelerated, and a right arm that is in the process of straightening. Force being directed to a spot in front of the ball, to both arms straight, 'outward' from the 'center' of balance. No 'adding', just 'supporting'.

 

[rundmc]

If you're debating what Mr. K said it was SUSTAIN the Lag . . . not ADD TO the Lag. His science may have been flawed but the practical applications seem to work pretty well.

 

[mandrin]

Fair enough I suppose - the loaded 'bent' shaft, supported by the pressure points in the hands, which have not over accelerated, and a right arm that is in the process of straightening. Force being directed to a spot in front of the ball, to both arms straight, 'outward' from the 'center' of balance. No 'adding', just 'supporting'.

You are primarily referring to feel and not necessarily to what actually happens.

There is a clubhead, a shaft and the hands, forming the interface between the club and the golfer.

For a driver both theoretical and experimental evidence shows that the shaft bends forward at impact. This effect is substantially less or absent with irons.

Hence for a driver the loading of the shaft, by bending, is not a potential energy which can be maintained and released at impact.

Do you hence believe that the ‘loaded bent shaft’ (driver), is a useful feel type image/instruction not necessarily corresponding to the physics involved?

 

[Mike O]

Question

You are primarily referring to feel and not necessarily to what actually happens.

There is a clubhead, a shaft and the hands, forming the interface between the club and the golfer.

For a driver both theoretical and experimental evidence shows that the shaft bends forward at impact. This effect is substantially less or absent with irons.

Hence for a driver the loading of the shaft, by bending, is not a potential energy which can be maintained and released at impact.

Do you hence believe that the ‘loaded bent shaft’ (driver), is a useful feel type image/instruction not necessarily corresponding to the physics involved?

Not really that interested in the shaft issue but I am curious how you would explain the difference between theoretical evidence and experimental evidence? I don't know, it may have been just "quick typing".
I.K.

 

[rcw]

high speed

Have all of you seen high speed video of a driver shaft through impact(10,000 frames per second)? The shaft is almost C shaped into and through impact.(with tour players and X stiff shafts, they look like rubber) The clubhead is well ahead of the shaft and you can clearly see the sweetspot is trying to stay in line or catch up with #3 or the hands.

Just wondering if you have seen the video.

 

[jmessner]

Have all of you seen high speed video of a driver shaft through impact(10,000 frames per second)? The shaft is almost C shaped into and through impact.(with tour players and X stiff shafts, they look like rubber) The clubhead is well ahead of the shaft and you can clearly see the sweetspot is trying to stay in line or catch up with #3 or the hands.

Just wondering if you have seen the video.

I've seen something like it, and I'd love to have an electronic version. As a clubfitter/maker enthusiast, it would be real helpful to show folks how the shaft bends and influences launch angle. Even though, to me, it makes perfect sense from a physics standpoint, most people have a hard time with the concept because the "feel" is different than what really happens.