Handicapping a match?

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gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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So if two players are playing, say its my dad and myself.

I am a 6, he is a 15.

His average drive is 210 and mine is 260.

I am giving him 9 shots.

When we play do we play from the same tee box? Is that yardage difference already factored into the handicap over the course of adding in the slopes and course ratings into the previous 20 scores?
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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ParHunter said:
Yes you would play of the same tees.
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I have heard conflicting things on this, then I saw Mike Davis on the US Open telecast and he explained that the tee box chosen should allow for the player to be able to hit a drive and then a mid to short iron on a hole of 370 yards, if they cant hit their average drive and do that for that yardage of hole then they are hitting from the wrong tee box. He said the course ratings would come into play for handicapping a match, but honestly I don't understand it.

The issue I have is that if I play the back tee box at say Desert Mountain with my dad, I could give him 50 because he cant carry the the desert (around 230ish in many cases), and even if he does I will take a chance at my 5 iron versus his driver off the deck to get there in 2 for most of the par 4's.
 
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ParHunter

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gmbtempe said:
I have heard conflicting things on this, then I saw Mike Davis on the US Open telecast and he explained that the tee box chosen should allow for the player to be able to hit a drive and then a mid to short iron on a hole of 370 yards, if they cant hit their average drive and do that for that yardage of hole then they are hitting from the wrong tee box. He said the course ratings would come into play for handicapping a match, but honestly I don't understand it.

The issue I have is that if I play the back tee box at say Desert Mountain with my dad, I could give him 50 because he cant carry the the desert (around 230ish in many cases), and even if he does I will take a chance at my 5 iron versus his driver off the deck to get there in 2 for most of the par 4's.
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Sounds odd but then I don't know much about the US slope system. Here in the UK when we play a medal, stableford or match play you always play off the same tee. The exception is with mixed competitions where the ladies tee of the ladies tee and get two shots extra (at least at our club)
 
faux_maestro

faux_maestro

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In the U.S. you have a handicap index and you get your course handicap based on the slope of the course/tee you are playing from. Because of this you can play from different tees and have an effective match. My index could be 10, from the middle tees my course handicap might be 9, from the back it might be 12.
 
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ParHunter

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faux_maestro said:
I always read in Sam Snead's books that the better player should only gives 80% of the difference between the handicap.
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I think match play is often played with 3/4 handicap difference although according to CONGU (Council of National Golf Unions) the full handicap difference should be used. Not sure what the USGA says on that though but it might be similar.
 
gmbtempe

gmbtempe

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faux_maestro said:
In the U.S. you have a handicap index and you get your course handicap based on the slope of the course/tee you are playing from. Because of this you can play from different tees and have an effective match. My index could be 10, from the middle tees my course handicap might be 9, from the back it might be 12.
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I think this is correct based on some other reading I have.

If say I am a scratch, and the rating is 75.00, I would get 3 shots. Say my dad was playing the 2 box up and it was a 72 rating and he was a 10 he would not get any additional, the difference would be 13 shots if we were playing.
 
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Keefer

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I heard Tom Watson say recently (PGA Radio) that a PGA Tour player on average has an 8 iron into the green (2nd shot) on a 460 yard par 4. Most amateurs would have a fairway wood into that (2nd shot) distance and still come up short a lot of the times.

I heard a golf course designer say that if you were to play Tiger Woods in a one hole match you should have (roughly) the same iron into the green on a 450 yard par 4. So if Tiger hits a 300 yard drive and a 9 iron or pitching wedge into the green from 150, you should have a similar iron into the green. So if you hit your drive 230 and hit your 9 iron / pitching wedge 120-130 you need to play off a tee that is ~ 355 yards.

The point is distance is huge and you need to have short to mid irons into most greens instead of woods and hybrids to be able to compete. So the answer is no, you should not be playing off the same tee.
 
mgranato

mgranato

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Oh My... the Nanny State has officially gotten its crusty old fingers on my beloved game.

We don't lower the basket because of someone's lack of height.

We don't scoot the goal line closer because of someone's lack of speed.

These formulas are silly, IMO. Play from the tees that give you an honest test, expose some weaknesses, but let you have a shot at a reasonable score from reasonable play. In other words... let skill decide were you play from, not distance.

Golf is supposed to be hard, now go out and enjoy it. :)
 
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Tball88

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You should play a % of handicap, if it was official say 80% or 90%. Reason is:

Player A is a 20 handicap, shoots an 89, net 69
Player B is a 2 handicap shoots a 72, net 70

Player A shot 3/20 or 15% better than what he is suppose to shoot, Player B shot 100% better than what he is suppose to shoot, yet player B lost..... hmm... Unless you do some percentage the high handicap always has the advantage.
 
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Keefer

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Here's a good formula that works for many. Take the distance you hit your 27* club (5 iron or hybrid) and multiply it by 36.

For example. If you hit your 5 iron ~185 then you should play from a tee roughly 6660 yards (36 x 185 = 6660). If your father hits his 5 iron or hybrid ~165 yards then he should play from a tee roughly 5940 (36 x 165 = 5940).

Again, distance is the biggest factor. You can find similar slope and course ratings on courses with huge disparties in distance. This is the reason behind Tee It Forward promoted by Barney Adams, Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson and the USGA.

Tom Watson said the average golfer (low 90's swingspeed) probably shouldn't play from further back than 6400 yards. If the Tour Player played from where average golfers play (using 2nd shot into green distances) they'd be playing from over 8000 yards.

There's a reason they have different tee boxes.
 
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birly-shirly

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mgranato said:
Oh My... the Nanny State has officially gotten its crusty old fingers on my beloved game.

We don't lower the basket because of someone's lack of height.

We don't scoot the goal line closer because of someone's lack of speed.

These formulas are silly, IMO. Play from the tees that give you an honest test, expose some weaknesses, but let you have a shot at a reasonable score from reasonable play. In other words... let skill decide were you play from, not distance.

Golf is supposed to be hard, now go out and enjoy it. :)
Click to expand...

When I'm flying 620yd par 5s in 2, with an injured shoulder, and putting is still the strongest part of my game - I'm going to be talking that smack too...:)
 
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ParHunter

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Tball88 said:
You should play a % of handicap, if it was official say 80% or 90%. Reason is:

Player A is a 20 handicap, shoots an 89, net 69
Player B is a 2 handicap shoots a 72, net 70

Player A shot 3/20 or 15% better than what he is suppose to shoot, Player B shot 100% better than what he is suppose to shoot, yet player B lost..... hmm... Unless you do some percentage the high handicap always has the advantage.
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You hear that a lot that high handicapper always have the advantage but that isn't supported by the stats (at least not for my club).
I've went through the tournaments a while ago and checked the handicap of the winners/runner ups and the result is that you might as well not turn up as an category 3 or category 4 player!
Cat1: 26%, Cat 2: 56%, Cat 3: 11%, Cat 4: 7% and that although the majority of the club are cat 3 and cat 4 players.
 
dschultz6072

dschultz6072

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More like 3 times.

The tees I'm playing from now I usually have no more than an 8 during the summer if my drives are decent, but I'm trying to shoot par from there. The back tees, now that's a different animal. I'd probably aim for the rough to get flyers into the greens.
 
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