Hands at the Plane Line?

[Kevin Shields]

Kevin, Mgranato, Wulsy and Oliver, I really appreciate the feedback. But I can't help feeling that I'd hit the ball much more powerfully and consistently if I looked more like (I know I'll never fully get there) the pro's at impact. Being flat-footed has got to mean that I'm not getting my right side fully into the shot, doesn't it?

Kevin, you mentioned that with my swing if the right elbow led I'd never swing again. Can you explain why? Frankly, I'm willing to change my entire swing if I could get my hands and right elbow to move toward the target line (while the club lays back) to start the downswing instead of back and down -- 100% of the players swings that I really like have that kind of downswing start. I blame the years of trying to swing inside out as all the instruction advised when I first started playing. Is it because I'm crossing the line? Taking the club back too flat? Shoulder plane too steep?

The "new" release seems to have helped the right elbow be less stuck behind me than it used to, which has already improved my ball-striking (thanks, Brian and Michael). I'm not sure why the change in release is having that effect, but it's got me (or my right elbow) started on a path that I now want to pursue.

Thank you.

SoCal,

First off, if you want to have a certain look at impact that your favorite players have it would help to have a top of the backswing look those players have. That's one of the problems with chasing the effect, and not the cause.

Second, you may have mistyped, but 0% of top players have the hands moving toward the target line from the top of the swing. Maybe that could help you start this pursuit a little differently.

 

[Socalesq]

SoCal,

First off, if you want to have a certain look at impact that your favorite players have it would help to have a top of the backswing look those players have. That's one of the problems with chasing the effect, and not the cause.

Second, you may have mistyped, but 0% of top players have the hands moving toward the target line from the top of the swing. Maybe that could help you start this pursuit a little differently.

Kevin, then what am I seeing in Hogan's (among many others) ds start?

Ben Hogan Swing 1953 - YouTube

 

[magicmarker]

poor quality video can produce illusions.
Do you want to swing your body more like Hogan or do you want the club/head to swing more like Hogan's did. I think this was where dschulz was going with kinematics vs kinetics. If my club swings through with the same speed and angles and forces.... then who really cares how it looked as I made it happen, certainly not the ball.

 

[Socalesq]

But Kevin said 0% of top players hands move toward the target line starting the downswing. I could link to tons of great players who it looks to me do just that (or even beyond the target line), with the club laying back. My swing does the reverse -- hands drop back or at best straight down and the shaft steepens. Just trying to understand Kevin's statement.

 

[natep]

But Kevin said 0% of top players hands move toward the target line starting the downswing. I could link to tons of great players who it looks to me do just that (or even beyond the target line), with the club laying back. My swing does the reverse -- hands drop back or at best straight down and the shaft steepens. Just trying to understand Kevin's statement.

Socal,

I think what he means is that while different players have different hand paths (from down the line view), some being more vertical and some more horizontal (and some straighter and some more curved), no top players hands go directly to the target line, they go somewhere between the toes and target line. Check out this Hogan image, I drew a line on his hands from the start of the downswing to left arm parallel to illustrate.

You can read a lot more about hand path and how it affects the steepness of the shaft on the downswing here:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/13147-sergio-garcia-tumble.html

 

[Kevin Shields]

Yeah, you just have to either look a little closer or peruse that thread. Hands never go toward the ball. Any swing, but yours in particular, could be destroyed by trying this.

 

[TeeAce]

Yeah, you just have to either look a little closer or peruse that thread. Hands never go toward the ball. Any swing, but yours in particular, could be destroyed by trying this.

Are you now talking about toward the ball or toward the target line? Just get confused. They definitely go toward the target line but not toward the ball. And not directly at transition but really soon after that.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Oh boy

 

[Brian Manzella]

Are you now talking about toward the ball or toward the target line? Just get confused. They definitely go toward the target line but not toward the ball. And not directly at transition but really soon after that.

Some go through a pass through point.

 

[TeeAce]

Some go through a pass through point.

Yes I know I'm an idiot, but when reading these two I just got confused

SoCal,

Second, you may have mistyped, but 0% of top players have the hands moving toward the target line from the top of the swing. Maybe that could help you start this pursuit a little differently.

Yeah, you just have to either look a little closer or peruse that thread. Hands never go toward the ball. Any swing, but yours in particular, could be destroyed by trying this.

And for sure they don't move toward the ball from transition, but it doesn't mean that the work is not that way. Have seen both ways.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Tapio,

PLENTY of folks moving their hands at the plane line. Just not a handful who do it and can really play, and hardly ANY EVER who keep the hands going toward that plane line for more than just a brief moment in time.

 

[TeeAce]

Tapio,

PLENTY of folks moving their hands at the plane line. Just not a handful who do it and can really play, and hardly ANY EVER who keep the hands going toward that plane line for more than just a brief moment in time.

Sorry Brian, it's maybe my level of language that make me confused here, but didn't Kevin said that 0% of good players move their hands toward the target line at first quote?

Anyway here is some paths from 3 different angles

and here is the graph where we can see they move out about at the same time they start to go down. Green is height and red is distance from the target line. And the club head is moving just opposite direction at that moment (not shown on this graph).

 

[Brian Manzella]

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/35888335?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="700" height="499" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Thanks Brian. I have been tracking hand paths (face on and downline) since I bought my first high end camera back in 1996. The hands of better ball strikers (DL view) always have traveled at a spot between the ball and feet- POST transition. You may see a good player carry it a bit towards the ball in transition, but then they go vertical at a spot player side of the ball.

 

[mgranato]

Hopefully in the spirit of there are no stupid questions...

What are you guys using as a reference point for these hand path lines? At the beginning of the downswing and when the club is parallel for the last time? Or when the lead arm is parallel?

About parallax - when the camera is close, it's worse. What about when the camera is moved well back, do you have to leave it "zoomed back" to reduce parallax, or can you zoom in on the player and still have it reduced?

 

[Socalesq]

Thanks, Brian. I really like your scientific approach to teaching.

You make it quite clear that the hands don't go all the way to the original plane line. But if I draw a vertical line straight down (90 degrees) to the ground from the butt of the club at the top of the swing, the hands of almost all good players do move toward the target line as they start down -- or put another way, they move in a target line direction away from that straight down line. And the club often lays back at that point. In my swing, the hands and right elbow look like they drop down the vertical line, or even behind it, at the start down and the shaft steepens. I have been trying to fix that for a long time with no success. Any ideas?

 

[Kevin Shields]

But your shaft is already layed down going back. You have a quick swing so it needs steepened immediately, hence your hand path.

 

[TeeAce]

I think Brian's video is great example how small changes in camera angle, lens distortions and 2D distortion that way fools us.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I think Brian's video is great example how small changes in camera angle, lens distortions and 2D distortion that way fools us.

It also show how most good players DO NOT start their hands—or at any juncture for any time—at the "plane line."

 

[DCgolf]

I have players starting their hand line at the ball every day. Nobody has ever heard of them. Or ever will.