Hands Forward the Proper Way

[Todd Dugan]

If you're hitting down 4 degrees, then a forward shaft lean of 4 degrees is not delofting.

If you are implying that the face can't be defined until you know the path, then I would disagree with that.


The vertical angle of the clubface relative to the ground during impact is the Dynamic Loft. Frankly, the ball doesn't care about that, either.

The ball doesn't care about the Dynamic Loft? You can't determine Launch Angle from just Spin Loft.

Rather than respond directly to what you have said, let me just say that everything that I have stated is clear and accurate, easliy confirmed by the good folks at TrackMan.

 

[wulsy]

Lets say your angle of attack is 60* with a 60* lobwedge which has 60* forward lean . Dynamic loft = 0*, AoA = -60* => Spinloft = 60*. How would the ball fly? Me thinks pretty low (but not flat). And very different to 0* forward lean, 0* AoA whic also gives a Spinloft of 60*. No?

 

[lia41985]

The vertical angle of the clubface relative to the ground during impact is the Dynamic Loft. Frankly, the ball doesn't care about that, either.

Rather than respond directly to what you have said, let me just say that everything that I have stated is clear and accurate, easliy confirmed by the good folks at TrackMan.

From: http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter7.pdf

Dynamic loft will have a greater influence than attack angle in determining the launch angle of a shot.

That's from page 3. Launch angle is important therefore dynamic loft is important therefore the ball "cares" about dynamic loft.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Lets say your angle of attack is 60* with a 60* lobwedge which has 60* forward lean . Dynamic loft = 0*, AoA = -60* => Spinloft = 60*. How would the ball fly? Me thinks pretty low (but not flat). And very different to 0* forward lean, 0* AoA whic also gives a Spinloft of 60*. No?

Launch Angle will differ by 60*. Spin Rate and Ball Speed will be the same, because the loft that the ball "feels" (Spinloft) will be the same.

 

[Todd Dugan]

From: http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter7.pdf

That's from page 3. Launch angle is important therefore dynamic loft is important therefore the ball "cares" about dynamic loft.

The ball launches 65-95% of the Spinloft plus the Attack Angle. The ball 'feels" the Spinloft and the Launch Angle is adjusted by the Attack Angle. The ball does not need to know the Dynamic Loft. But since Spinloft + Attack Angle = Dynamic Loft, then it is not incorrect to say that Dynamic Loft influences Launch Angle.

Why do you continue to challenge a Jedi Master, young grasshopper?

 

[lia41985]

The ball launches 65-95% of the Spinloft plus the Attack Angle. The ball 'feels" the Spinloft and the Launch Angle is adjusted by the Attack Angle. The ball does not need to know the Dynamic Loft. But since Spinloft + Attack Angle = Dynamic Loft, then it is not incorrect to say that Dynamic Loft influences Launch Angle.

Why do you continue to challenge a Jedi Master, young grasshopper?

Todd,
You were claiming that dynamic loft was irrelevant and stating that the "good folks at Trackman" were your source. In fact, the Trackman newsletter shows the significance of dynamic loft, which is directly the opposite of your assertion. This is easily verified by comparing what you stated to what's written in the newsletter. However, you've proven to be stubborn in the face of proof but you've done this before. Here:

Lia, do you really think that rotating the shaft in place moves it to a new plane, with a different horizontal direction? C'mon.

And here:

What you have stated is beyond erroneous.

You'll state that I'm wrong then offer no contradictory evidence to support your proposition. Now you've taken to referring to yourself as a jedi and to me as a grasshopper--it'd be funny if it weren't such an obvious exposition of how arrogant, juvenile, and closed-minded you are. You'd rather declare yourself right and me wrong than to honestly discuss things in a mature fashion. You don't wear that professional label very well. By the way, what happened with this:

Lia, you're obviously bright. But you're making so many errors in your understanding of the mechanics of the golf stroke. I've been teaching professionally for 20 years and am a PGA Certified Instructor and Golf Digest Certified Instructor. I am familiar enough with the groundbreaking golf research book "Search For The Perfect Swing" to teach it in a classroon environment. The research data presented in it, compiled by a team of world-renowned scientists, easily dissproves much of what you have stated lately. I suggest you aquire a copy and begin studying.

I never did get those citations to those portions of the book that "easily disproved" what I had written.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Lia, arguing with people like this is a gigantic waste of your time.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Lia, I just don't have the time to explain it to you. I don't have the time to put together a 6-hour post with 47 quotations. I mean, if you don't understand that simply rotating the shaft around its own axis does not physically move the shaft to a new plane with a new horizontal direction, then its going to take me at least a year to explain the rest to you.

But you put words in my mouth. I never said that TrackMan was "my source". And I never said that Dynamic Loft was "irrelevent". For someone who is as good at using quotations as you are, I would think that you could get that right.

But I will stand by what I said. The loft relative to the ground (Dynamic Loft) does not indicate the "true" collision loft applied to the ball. The loft relative to the Attack Angle does (Spinloft). So in the sense of what loft angle is respected by the ball as the smashing force, responsible for the Spin Rate and Ball Speed, it is the Spinloft. And, in that sense, the ball does not care what the Dynamic Loft is. Nobody who actually understands this stuff would contend that.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Lia, arguing with people like this is a gigantic waste of your time.

Can I take that as a compliment? If not, I'm surprised, Kevin. I feel that my participation, and the participation of other PGA pros, only enhances this forum. And I've extended some honest compliments and respect toward Brian and his staff. But hey, I get it....nobody likes a know-it-all. What can I say, I enjoy helping people understand this stuff.

 

[jmessner]

This is one confusing thread. The OP starts talking about low ball flight, and an argument about spin loft breaks out. Assuming we are actually talking about launch angle isn't the following true?

LA=.75DL + .25AoA

since,
SL(Spin Loft)=DL-AoA and AoA=DL-SL

then you can also write

LA=.75DL+.25(DL-SL) = DL-.25SL

Sure seems like dynamic loft is the dominant predictor of launch angle.........

 

[lia41985]

I feel that my participation, and the participation of other PGA pros, only enhances this forum.

These are our hosts and their determinations regarding your participation:

Someone "in the biz" comes to my website, makes claims/statements/etc, gets somewhat, or more than somewhat, schooled by yours truly.

Then they want to take their marbles and run home to mommy.

What a joke.

Don't go to a MATH website and keep adding and subtracting incorrectly and not expect to be corrected.

Your "shot" at Tuxen was NOT very professional. Your almost totally blowing off my corrections of you INCORRECT STATEMENTS were almost as bad.

Probably, you'd have been better off ASKING questions and not MAKING statements that were either incorrect, half-true or taken out of context.

I could not agree more...Listen, learn and contribute if you have a question or some worthwhile information that has some factual basis at least.

Lets use some real info and not some factless observations.

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But hey, I get it....nobody likes a know-it-all. What can I say, I enjoy helping people understand this stuff.

You're not a "know-it-all" or a "jedi master" and you're not good at teaching--you enjoy thinking you're right.

But you put words in my mouth. I never said that TrackMan was "my source". And I never said that Dynamic Loft was "irrelevent". For someone who is as good at using quotations as you are, I would think that you could get that right.

Really?:

The vertical angle of the clubface relative to the ground during impact is the Dynamic Loft. Frankly, the ball doesn't care about that, either.

Rather than respond directly to what you have said, let me just say that everything that I have stated is clear and accurate, easliy confirmed by the good folks at TrackMan.

 

[leon]

This is one confusing thread. The OP starts talking about low ball flight, and an argument about spin loft breaks out. Assuming we are actually talking about launch angle isn't the following true?

LA=.75DL + .25AoA

since,
SL(Spin Loft)=DL-AoA and AoA=DL-SL

then you can also write

LA=.75DL+.25(DL-SL) = DL-.25SL

Sure seems like dynamic loft is the dominant predictor of launch angle.........

Good point. Surely, as we are just rearranging equations here you could write it however you want. If you want to say which is most important, then shouldn't it be based on what to golfer can effect? Amount of down changes AOA and shaft lean changes DL. Not sure what I can do to DIRECTLY change my SL?

 

[wulsy]

Lets say your angle of attack is 60* with a 60* lobwedge which has 60* forward lean . Dynamic loft = 0*, AoA = -60* => Spinloft = 60*. How would the ball fly? Me thinks pretty low (but not flat). And very different to 0* forward lean, 0* AoA whic also gives a Spinloft of 60*. No?

Its gona fly lower because the DL is lower. Difficult to disagree with this I think. No?

 

[wulsy]

"TrackMan data has shown for drivers, that dynamic loft
normally accounts for about 85% of the launch angle, while
attack angle accounts for the remaining 15%. For irons, the
ratio is around 75% dynamic loft and 25% attack angle.
For example, a 10° launch angle would result from a iron
shot where the attack angle is -5 degrees and the Dynamic
Loft is +15 degrees (15 * 75% plus -5 * 25% equals 10)."

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter7.pdf

So DL largely determines lauch angle for all practical intents and puropses on the golf course. End of. No?

 

[wulsy]

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...t-thing-ever-secret-tour-quality-shots-4.html

Surely the axis tilt cancels out forwards lean? Therefore axit tilt with forwards lean = no forwards lean.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Can I take that as a compliment? If not, I'm surprised, Kevin. I feel that my participation, and the participation of other PGA pros, only enhances this forum. And I've extended some honest compliments and respect toward Brian and his staff. But hey, I get it....nobody likes a know-it-all. What can I say, I enjoy helping people understand this stuff.

I would not take it as a compliment. Jedi Master? Really?