He played professional therefore he is more qualified to teach?

[GaryRead]

My dad is having his first lesson with an ex tour (European) player here in London and when I asked him why he chose this guy he said " well he's played to a high profrssional standard so he knows how to hit the ball solidly!"

I would like to see how much people think it is important to be able to play the game that you teach to a high standard and how much of an advantage it is for a teacher if they have played to a high professional standard when teaching pupils the game. I'm sure there are great teachers who didn't posses the attributes to be great players themselves but they do have the attributes to be able to teach the game with great success and vice versa.

That's the first discussion point, and the second thing I would like to ask people is what questions should we be asking a prospective teacher to able to let us know if there worth anything?

Looking fwd to any opinions

 

[Erik_K]

It might very well depend on what you are trying to get out of the lesson. If you want lessons on competitive play, course management, golf psychology, etc then one might put emphasis on getting lessons from a teacher with prior competition experience.

In some instances there are teachers who are very busy with their students and simply don't get out on to the course all that much. Maybe this teacher can't break 80 very often, but if he/she knows about a lot about the swing and how to make the student better, it may not be all that important (their scoring for 18 holes).

It really does boil down to the client's goals. If your goal is to lower your scores and you have tons of three putts per round, skulled pitch shots and the like by all means find a pro with some skill at teaching the short game.

Beware of the "line drawers." Now more than ever video and software associated with the swing are part of many teaching professionals' lessons. At times this information is useful. Sometimes you can't get a point across without video. Sometimes the student thinks/feels he/she is doing one thing when they are doing another. I suppose it boils down to the specific problem and the way the student is perceiving the problem. Where they get carried away is trying to force a student to swing like tour player (the model swing). We know this is simply not 100% necessary for solid impact.

You can ask how many students the Pro has or how many lessons/year the Pro gives. You could also ask for references too. In the past I've asked playing partners in my league or better players I've with who they speak to about the swing.

I'd ask the instructor what a typical lesson entails. Any discussion of goals? Is there 'take home' material in the form of printed notes, a video synopsis of the lessons, specific drills to correct a problem? In some sense this entails going back to the instructor multiple times over a few weeks or months. It might be impossible to correct all issues in a single, 1 hr session.

Erik

 

[hp12c]

Will I be able to strike the ball better after this lesson and way after this lesson with all my clubs?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Just because you are good at something doesn't mean you know how to make other people good at it. You better be prepared to find what works for that person and find a way to communicate to them. What works for you may not work for them. Also playing golf and hitting shots are completely different, my range game is easier 5 strokes better than my on course game.

 

[Burner]

My dad is having his first lesson with an ex tour (European) player here in London and when I asked him why he chose this guy he said " well he's played to a high profrssional standard so he knows how to hit the ball solidly!"

I would like to see how much people think it is important to be able to play the game that you teach to a high standard and how much of an advantage it is for a teacher if they have played to a high professional standard when teaching pupils the game. I'm sure there are great teachers who didn't posses the attributes to be great players themselves but they do have the attributes to be able to teach the game with great success and vice versa.

That's the first discussion point, and the second thing I would like to ask people is what questions should we be asking a prospective teacher to able to let us know if there worth anything?
Looking fwd to any opinions

Send him to Ian Clark, who posts occasionally on this site,

Ian Clark golf professional golf tuition based at world of golf New Malden Surrey

 

[mgranato]

Pick any Top 100 list of teachers, and then add up the number of years total they have held a PGA/Euro PGA Tour card. I'm gonna guess that number averages out to be quite low. This isn't scientific by any means, but it does give an idea of what is not required. In fact, I would venture a guess that having taught a Tour player might be more valuable than having been a Tour player.

Heck just look at the most successful coach in another sport, who also happened to not play professionally...

 

[OLIVER1]

It's purely person-specific. I know one ex-European Tour pro who's a phenomenal teacher, and I know another who couldn't teach a fish how to swim...

It is interesting though, because intuitively you'd think the ex-tour boys would have a little more to offer; in fact, I'm convinced they do, but do they know it themselves, operating, as they have been, in the rarified atmosphere of phenom-land? Moreover, can they relay it with any cogency to people less blessed?

 

[mgranato]

It's purely person-specific. I know one ex-European Tour pro who's a phenomenal teacher, and I know another who couldn't teach a fish how to swim...

It is interesting though, because intuitively you'd think the ex-tour boys would have a little more to offer; in fact, I'm convinced they do, but do they know it themselves, operating, as they have been, in the rarified atmosphere of phenom-land? Moreover, can they relay it with any cogency to people less blessed?

Seems like they would/should really shine in a "playing lesson" format. I sometimes think too much learning/teaching is done on the range. I understand the economic difficulties in occupying a pro's time for 4+ hours, but i think it can be worth 3 or 4 times the going rate if learning how to play actually takes root.

I'm always more cautious of the guys with "creative" swings who never leave the course than I am of the guys with "perfect" swings who never leave the range.

 

[Brian Manzella]

To answer the question simply.....compared to who?

 

[dschultz6072]

I thought that was what a PAT is for. Everyone with a PGA cert should have been able to play fairly well at one point in their life. The game requires a lot of practice, which takes time. Teaching takes time, and there isn't enough to go around. One has got to give.

There are a lot of reasons why teachers end up teaching instead of playing for a living. One of them is they actually enjoy growing the game. It doesn't have to be all about not being able to putt, or not being long enough, or not having the money to invest. Those are just a few reasons I've heard.

 

[Brian Manzella]

No correlation from playing to be ABLE to teach.

 

[GaryRead]

Brian,

What questions would you ask a new instructor on your first lesson if you were a student?

 

[birly-shirly]

In a different sphere, music, I've been lucky enough to participate in a few masterclasses with international class performers. In every case, the experience has been terrific. These guys bring levels of experience, insight and commitment which is amazing to learn from at close quarters.

But, but, but - you're already playing at a certain level before you get put in that situation. And often, what you get is an alternative point of view - often very provocative and usually pretty challenging. Not everyone responds well to that sort of experience, or appreciates it.

I think the masterclass experience is a great one - but it was always a supplement to my regular learning and teaching, not a substitute.

Having said that, I asked around just recently for golf teacher recommendations in my local area and the 2 guys who were consistently well rated just happen to have played on the European tour. Then again, both have been committed, long-standing teachers in the area for a good few years - and that maybe counts for more, especially in teaching the basics, than high level competitive ability.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Brian,

What questions would you ask a new instructor on your first lesson if you were a student?

Will i get worse before i get better? If they yes, politely walk away.

 

[Tony D'Antonio]

Will i get worse before i get better? If they yes, politely walk away.

Boy, this is tough. If you are trying to get someone to change a flawed, ingrained technique won't some of your students suffer in the short run (ie. get worse) until they get a bit comfortable with the new technique? Or are you just saying that you don't tell new students they may get worse?
I haven't taken many golf lessons but the only time I got worse before I got better was when I took lessons from Ben Doyle. In the long run his lessons were my best but in the short run ....whew, bad. My other lessons were always followed with short term better ball striking and then I'd revert back to bad habits. I should have stuck with one teacher but I just didn't have the money to pay for a lot of lessons.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Boy, this is tough. If you are trying to get someone to change a flawed, ingrained technique won't some of your students suffer in the short run (ie. get worse) until they get a bit comfortable with the new technique? Or are you just saying that you don't tell new students they may get worse?
I haven't taken many golf lessons but the only time I got worse before I got better was when I took lessons from Ben Doyle. In the long run his lessons were my best but in the short run ....whew, bad. My other lessons were always followed with short term better ball striking and then I'd revert back to bad habits. I should have stuck with one teacher but I just didn't have the money to pay for a lot of lessons.

No, you should leave your first lesson hitting it better than you got there. Doesn't mean you'll be fixed or immediately score better (we've recently discussed hitting shots is not scoring) but you should be able to leave with a better understanding of what you should be doing and you should be hitting it better than before.

I don't know Ben, but from what i've read on this site and from other people Ben basically taught the same pattern to everyone so it's very possible you would get worse before better because it may not fit you very well. I believe you should find a pattern that suits the golfer and not the other way around.

 

[OLIVER1]

I believe you should find a pattern that suits the golfer and not the other way around.

Certainly agree 100% with that Jim, BUT what if the pattern that will suit that golfer won't manifest itself in all its glory until after the first session?

If you change the time/body positions equation for the better, but the student unerringly does something to subvert that - a product of shock at being in different positions, or a way to feel more comfortable through the swing (reverting to form) - maybe that would preclude the student from leaving the first session hitting it better.

 

[SPmoser87]

I thought that was what a PAT is for. Everyone with a PGA cert should have been able to play fairly well at one point in their life. The game requires a lot of practice, which takes time. Teaching takes time, and there isn't enough to go around. One has got to give.

There are a lot of reasons why teachers end up teaching instead of playing for a living. One of them is they actually enjoy growing the game. It doesn't have to be all about not being able to putt, or not being long enough, or not having the money to invest. Those are just a few reasons I've heard.

The PAT is not a difficult test. They set the course up fairly short w/ easy pin positions, or at least at mine they did. All you have to do is go out there and shoot two mediocre rounds at the target score or better, and bam, you're done with that part of the program for a while. The failure rate is crazy though, I think we had like 14 or 15 players at mine and I think 5 passed. Target score was 156. After you pass it, one guy who passed had to take it 8 times, you really don't have to play well anymore if you don't feel the need to practice.

There are a lot of different paths you can take in the PGA program, and not one of them really require you to be able to "play," including teaching. If it becomes more like work and less like play, you really don't want to spend your free time practicing, especially at the club you work at. Its impossible to concentrate sometimes. I'd much rather call up a couple buddies for a round on a day off at a different club, drink a few beers, and play some skins game or something.

 

[wulsy]

Guys who can't play can't teach.

Some guys who can play can't teach.

Teaching something that you can't do yourself is an ABSURD idea.

Most pupils have no idea whether their teacher is any good or not.

Most teachers are in it for the money and the money alone.

 

[ms1170]

Guys who can't play can't teach.

Some guys who can play can't teach.

Teaching something that you can't do yourself is an ABSURD idea.

Most pupils have no idea whether their teacher is any good or not.

Most teachers are in it for the money and the money alone.

Wulsy, were you abused as a child by a golf instructor? It seems you have a lot of anger towards people that are trying to help people play a GAME better.