Michael Finney
New
all these questions will be asked, hopefully answered, and we'll be able to explain.....that's the plan
here is some handle speed data from
- Thread starter Michael Finney
- Start date
- Status
See Dariusz's comments. Of course it would, it has to.
just to add to the list: would butt-end speed of the grip vs. open-end speed of the grip give a good estimation of how effectively you're going normal?
If all you know is TGM and you are the best handle dragger that is out there wouldn't you expect the handle speed to accelerate right through impact?
So in other words is this another nail in the coffin?
James Marshall (Hogan1953)
New member
Is Ben Jackson a professional?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Basically, if you went to 100 driving ranges, and 100 golf websites, and asked 100 golfers at each (if they have 100), the percentage of folks who think the grip end decels is maybe 10%.
And, as far as seeing this stuff ourselves, Mike Finney bought stock in BioVison in 1990, the first 3D golf company.
They showed us this then.
Among other things.....
And, as far as seeing this stuff ourselves, Mike Finney bought stock in BioVison in 1990, the first 3D golf company.
They showed us this then.
Among other things.....
Frans@France
New
In the enso report they mention handle/speed ration. They would not do that if they did not feel it is important. So is there a relation between that ratio and other swing parameters?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I talked to Dr.Zick about this and other thing yesterday....
Boy it sure is refreshing to talk to a REAL SCIENTIST and not these wannabes.
Boy it sure is refreshing to talk to a REAL SCIENTIST and not these wannabes.
Here's a question: Is there a correlation between closure rates and the vertical swing plane? If so, how much? I suspect the flatter the vertical swing plane the faster the closure rate (otherwise the shots will go right all of the time). I wonder if there the relationship between closure rate and VSP is 1 to 1 or exponential.
Mike,
Thanks for getting this very important area started.
How each segment accelerates/decelerates is a complicated combination of their centers of rotation, moments of inertia and the torque generating power and time dependency. In the classical 'whip' analogy, there is symmetry and each distal to proximal element has a graduated set of mass properties AND the momentum is conserved.
In the case of athletic movements, especially golf, there are significant asymmetries, energy is being added, both complicating what we all would like, 'simple' rules of thumb for improvement.
But not to worry, for IMO (1) your collective Anti Summit scientists are very capable and prepared to find the 'dominant' body segments dynamic characteristics, and provide methods to understand, AND (2) with a little help from Brian and you competent teachers, the body is anxious and capable of 'optimizing' itself for it's best golf swing.
Finally to better visualize how a 'grip' decelerates when swinging a 'tool' in a downward direction, just split some logs for the fireplace, and be 'aware' fo the ax handles angular and near linear velocity at impact.
S
SteveT
Guest
Interesting comments art.... and I've often thought how the arm segmental velocities would differ between a golfer with (a)longer/shorter arms, (b)thicker/thinner arms.
Specifically, what are the dynamic differences between somebody with shorter, thicker arms versus longer, thinner arms and how does it affect the golfswing results?
Any intuitive thoughts...???
Specifically, what are the dynamic differences between somebody with shorter, thicker arms versus longer, thinner arms and how does it affect the golfswing results?
Any intuitive thoughts...???
Michael Finney
New
Talked to the ENSO designer yesterday - it was much more introductory than meat & potatoes.....he directed the discussion towards subjects that people who frequent this board could answer easily....he was extreemely gracious with his time and we have a standing invite to go out and experience ENSO within the next couple months...
it should be eye opening
the ENSO Pro routinely works at 722 frames per second when collecting club data....it can go to 2000 fps shooting at 4 megapixels if it so desires....cutting egde...
Quote "I have never seen a golf shaft not go into "lead" deflection nearing impact."
it should be eye opening
the ENSO Pro routinely works at 722 frames per second when collecting club data....it can go to 2000 fps shooting at 4 megapixels if it so desires....cutting egde...
Quote "I have never seen a golf shaft not go into "lead" deflection nearing impact."
Richard the Nerd
New
Mr. Batspeed on youtube...dude has some good stuff....the longball bangers got "early batspeed"....
Graph makes sense to me....is there anything to attempting to "slow the handle more"? Would there be increased returns there?
Graph makes sense to me....is there anything to attempting to "slow the handle more"? Would there be increased returns there?
Michael Finney
New
which takes us back to WHY Ping has acceleration profiles....and why human anatomy and muscles have to be factored in when looking at the limits of a kinematic sequence...in a perfect world, if we had to stick with a "rotation on an incline" it would probably be awesome if we were bulit like a 200 foot ferris wheel tipped at an angle with a club stuck to it....that way our angular speeds could all be even and the velocity would be cranking at the end of the whip.....but alas
Steve,
I appreciate your insights and thoughts, and hope with my science-based results you will reconsider how you assign weightings of 'useful golf information' to your personal priorities regarding science, art, feel etc. My goal in the posts that I have made and will make in the future is to ALWAYS TRY TO make the situation I am addressing a little easier to understand having been blessed with professional scientific, musical, and athletic, opportunities, and now the challenge of combining all of these into the best integrated AND UNDERSTANDABLE solution for golfers INTERESTED IN IMPROVING.
I have been seeking 'golf truth' virtually every day by activities that include 5 years of intense research, testing and application/communication of appropriate selective findings with several golf companies, universities, Institutes of Sports, medical research institutions, teaching and playing professionals, Golf Academies, and even instruction editors from golf magazines.
My participation here is based on what I believe is limited, but sufficient validation and verification of selected topics by analyses and testing, and am now entering a more formal stage of hypotheses testing with appropriate independent professional and academic people/organizations.
As I am sure is evident, I am passionate, and maybe even bull-headed about the importance of the roles of tempo/timing and forces and torque effects on dynamic balance/stability, but feel comfortable as those were the main ingredients of my chosen 47 year career.
Admittedly, while the human body is much more complicated than any airplane, missile, satellite or human spacecraft I ever had the pleasure of working on, today's scientific 'tools' IMO, now make the integrated understanding possible.
So, finally lets address you latest questions. The primary controlling element of club head velocity IMO is the profile and maximum angular velocity of the left arm. This characteristic is predominantly controlled by the torque generating capability of the left shoulder complex AND the left arms mass properties, predominantly the 'moment of inertia' around the humerus/glenoid point of rotation.
This moment of inertia involves the mass/weight of the arm, and it's length to the grip. So the effect on the golf swing is therefore dependent on the characteristics of the arm AND the torque generating capability of the left shoulder.
However, for completeness, other contributors to club head velocity certainly include the angular velocity characteristics of the shoulders/pelvis, and depending on swing styles, also involves the contribution of the right arm/hand for what used to be called 'hitters', versus 'swingers'.
drewyallop
New
John and Michael,
I am not sure this is right but I think I heard that lead deflection happens because the hands on the ds are inside the centre of mass of the club. To conserve momentum, part of the shaft and clubhead torque forward.
If this is true then couldn't lead be prevented by keeping the hands outside the clubhead on the way down? Of course this would be a totally powerless swing but it might explain why it is important to keep the hands low (under table). Or not, I know little.
Michael Finney
New
The ENSO guy simply described the desire for the club head COM to "line up" with the shaft axis (at the hands).....now i'm sure hand path would have a lot do with this "lining up" with regard to the where and the when, but i just go back to how empahtic he was about NEVER seeing a shaft not in lead....it was good to hear Sasho's models backed up by a guy not using a Casio!!!
Mike -
Would the lead deflection cause the leading edge to be in front of the handle all of the time? Or does it depend on the loft of the face?
- Status