High MOI vs. Heavy Putter

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birly-shirly

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Based on a quick read of the paper that Richie linked to, I would say neither.

The abstract concludes that equipment has little influence on putting performance, and what little influence it has is not a factor of either MoI or shaft weight.

See, e.g., p29 - no significant difference in performance between different shaft-weight putters

See also p15 in which he reviews previous research that found negligible difference in performance on off-centre hits as between the theoretical best and worst putter head designs.

I still find that last point surprising - even though Jorgensen predicted this years ago. It also suggests that I'm wasting my time with putter clips. A fact that I'm going to try and forget for a while.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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I'd go more with the Heavy Putter than the Spider. It says that the subjects they studied *felt like* they could aim the mallets better. But the *reality* was they *actually* aimed them worse and with a bigger dispersion. That's a very, very important point to understand when it comes to buying a putter.

I haven't researched the Heavy Putter much, but I believe it has a very heavy head. That's better for fast greens, but not so much for slower greens. The Nilssen and Karlsen research feels golfers can benefit from a heavier putter shaft...but not too heavy.





3JACK
 
dominicscaife

dominicscaife

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Great article.

For me the most interesting takeaway from the paper was the fact that stroke technique (34%) is not as important as green reading. (60%)

So spend more time practicing reading (putts of different line and length) and less time on technique (repeating the same putt)

I was also pleased to see the validation of something I've thought for a long time; that green inconsistencies are a significant factor (6%) even on today's excellent surfaces.

As Seve used to say "My perfect putt sometimes misses"
 
L

Lifter

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Richie3Jack said:
I'd go more with the Heavy Putter than the Spider. It says that the subjects they studied *felt like* they could aim the mallets better. But the *reality* was they *actually* aimed them worse and with a bigger dispersion. That's a very, very important point to understand when it comes to buying a putter.

I haven't researched the Heavy Putter much, but I believe it has a very heavy head. That's better for fast greens, but not so much for slower greens. The Nilssen and Karlsen research feels golfers can benefit from a heavier putter shaft...but not too heavy.





3JACK
Click to expand...

Why would a Heavy Putter work poorly on slow greens?
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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birly-shirly said:
Richie - are you sure that's what they found? I suspect that you understand stats a bit better than I do, but that wasn't what I took from the paper.
Click to expand...

I probably should explain it better. It says on page 40-41 that Nilssen found that the more skilled players did better with the heavier shafts. Overall it shows no difference. So it may not really help the 20 handicapper regardless of their shaft weight. But the less than 5 handicapper, may want to give it a look.





3JACK
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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Lifter said:
Why would a Heavy Putter work poorly on slow greens?
Click to expand...

That's generally the golden rule that I've heard since I was a junior golfer. But I believe Nilssen and Karlsen talk about it in the paper. Basically their results show that the golfers would hit their putts too hard with lighter putters and too soft with harder putters. They believe (pg 40) it has to do with the amount of force the golfer has to apply to get generate clubhead speed with the putter.





3JACK
 
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Damon Lucas

Super Moderator
I'd rate the MOI putters over the Heavy thing. Not a big differential. Not even that important as per the skills in putting to even worry about either option.
I didn't like the article much. Poor sample size(as I remember, because I read it a while back), poor understanding of putting by the testers, lots of assumptions, and who are they testing anyway???
How much traction have the Heavy putters made into the marketplace? Not much as far as I am aware. Since they have been around for a while now, my bet is even if someone uses one for a while, they then discard it, like Troy Matterson I believe.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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IIRC, they had 116 golfers. I think that meets the requirement for a scientific study (i think you need a sample size of at least 100 IIRC)...but I'd certainly like to see a bigger sample size for better accuracy. They mentioned they tested 22 PGA or European Tour players, some scratch or better players, and then all various handicaps.

I pretty much agree with your points, Damon. I just thought it was an interesting to some degree, particularly that golfers felt the mallets were easier to aim, although the measurements told a different story.






3JACK
 
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softconsult

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Richie, I stopped by your site today. My wallet started to vibrate. Nice looking putter. I like your pictures better than the
ones on Edel's site. After spending some time reading Mangrum this winter, and buying his DVD, the thing that jumps out
is the clear view of the leading edge and the exact 90 degree angle at the intersection of face and hosel. Has to help alignment.

I really like my "Itsy Bitsy Spider", but I could talk myself into a trip to see David Orr just over the mountains from me.
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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Thanks. I would also suggest Damon Lucas for putting instruction since he's also an authorized Geoff Mangum Putting Zone instructor. I've only applied about 1/2 of what Mangum has in the video and it's already worked very nicely. I need to implement the other 1/2.

I'm not a fan of those Spiders and wacky mallet designs for the same reason Mangum prescribes and I think in this case, Nilssen and Karlsen are really right on, IMO. I mean, do we know of any really, really really good putters out there...even on Tour, that use those wacky putter designs like the Spider?

The only one I can think of is Luke Donald.





3JACK
 
S

softconsult

New
As compared to my former Cameron Red X and Yes, (I forget the model, but mallet), the Spider really does swing back and through easily using more of a GM pendulum stroke. I don't try to use the lines for alignment. Setting aside those users of the long putter with MOI heads, one thing that always strikes me as odd are the MOI tour players, Goydos for one, where the stroke is sort of a hands in place method where the putter head rises steeply on the backswing and steeply after contact. The anti-thesis of GM technique. I've played Mallets since the days of the Zebra and they just seem to fit my eye better than a blade style.
 
L

Lifter

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Richie3Jack said:
Thanks. I would also suggest Damon Lucas for putting instruction since he's also an authorized Geoff Mangum Putting Zone instructor. I've only applied about 1/2 of what Mangum has in the video and it's already worked very nicely. I need to implement the other 1/2.

I'm not a fan of those Spiders and wacky mallet designs for the same reason Mangum prescribes and I think in this case, Nilssen and Karlsen are really right on, IMO. I mean, do we know of any really, really really good putters out there...even on Tour, that use those wacky putter designs like the Spider?

The only one I can think of is Luke Donald.





3JACK
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3Jack, the main reason I use a high-MOI putter is that I'm a 10-handicap, not a low-handicap. I purchased a high-MOI Nike IC 20-20 for $40 and it's worked wonders. I don't hit the center of the face consistently, yet every putt seems to come off solid.

So I guess I'm trying to get a sense of whether these results are real or psychological. Haven't heard a lot of ringing endorsements of high MOI due to the larger sweet spot (and thus higher margin of error) so it's hard to say. I have heard there are a lot of senior tour players who use high MOI putters because of the larger sweet spot. But I'm not certain that that's the case.
 
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softconsult

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Lifter, if you can't repeatedly strike the putt in the center of the putter, then you have some stroke, or movement issues to work on. The high MOI advantage can be that it tends to resist twisting. It could be helpful for you to try a putter that is not forgiving, in order to figure out why you are missing the sweetspot.
 
B

birly-shirly

New
Does such a thing exist? The nearest equivalent I can think of, in terms of providing immediate feedback on quality of strike, are putter clips from either Pelz or Yes! Opinions vary on whether these are a good training aid or not. Mine are on trial...
 
B

birly-shirly

New
Sorry - I was genuinely trying to answer your question. Are you wanting to train a forward leaning shaft in putting? That to me is what's unique about the tour striker aids.

If you want to train a more consistent contact on the putter sweetspot, then IMOP, putter clips are the way to go. But not everyone likes them.
 
A

Andrew007

New
Greg Chalmers

Richie3Jack said:
I mean, do we know of any really, really really good putters out there...even on Tour, that use those wacky putter designs like the Spider?

The only one I can think of is Luke Donald.

3JACK
Click to expand...

Following on from your blog post on 12 Jan 2012, Greg Chalmers is using an old Bobby Grace - see Greg Chalmers putter? - GolfWRX and Bobby Grace / Greg Chalmers commemorative Putter. I am looking at the new AMG (All Machined Grace) line with the radial insert and three sweetspot arrangement although I am happily using a pretty blade right now (Snake Eyes Tour Platinum 7804).

This question of high MOI vs Heavy Putter could do with more discussion with the growing uptake of long/belly putters which could be the answer to the question as you could fit a big head with a heavy shaft and use the big core muscles which might overcome some of the difficulties with longer putts. Just an idea.
 
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