Hinge Action, Rate of Closure, and what you SHOULD do with the clubface (p9 pic)

[Brian Manzella]

Fredrik Tuxen said to me today in a 30 minute Skype conversation:

A perfectly straight ball (no side-spin) would actually have an impact have about about a 0.4° closed face at mid-impact interval (the point near maximum compression when the ball gets its programming) and a 0.7° inside-out path. These numbers are not 0.0° because of a gear-effect-like action on the face to the ball (more on that in a second). On an normal shot with about 0.8° of face closure during the entire impact interval, that would mean the club would have first contact with the ball with the face AT 0.0° so that halfway through the interval, the clubface would be 0.4° closed.............So what?............So THIS!........(more Tuxen) If the golfer did everything EXACTLY like the straight ball, except had HALF the amount of closure during the interval, so that the face would be 0.2° closed (0.2° MORE OPEN THAN THE STRAIGHT BALL) the ball would slightly draw!!!!!! Start slightly right and DRAW!!.

So.....

Lets say that the TGM THEORETICAL idea of "horizontal hinge action" produced the straight ball (it can) and the "angled hinge action" produced the half amount of closure in the example above (just about correct if you do some math) then TGM would be EXACTLY BACKWARDS!!!

And all of the "less face rotation crowd" might get MORE HOOKS!!!

Too good....

 

[mgranato]

Has Tuxen verified this with a Casio?

 

[cwdlaw223]

What about the gear effect explanation?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Less closure during impact MORE HOOK SPIN.

Great news.

Awesome.

We win again.

And again.

and again....

 

[dbl]

It' a little hard to visualize at midway that 0.4* closed and 0.7* in/out = straight ball result. But 0.2*closed and 0.7* in out sounds starting more right with some slight amount of draw. If the face closure is slowed down enough, wouldn't you just get a push....not 'more hook'? What factor is making more hook? Is path somehow changing more in/out?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Less closure during impact MORE HOOK SPIN.

Great news.

Awesome.

We win again.

And again.

and again....

Brian, you did not win anything important, sorry. What you did win is a battle against those who claim that maintaining a less closure DURING IMPACT INTERVAL....blah blah blah.
Ask Tuxen, please, if he is capable to measure and analyze the RoC, say, from last parralel before impact to first parallel after impact.

Cheers

 

[welshdentist]

Brian, you did not win anything important, sorry. What you did win is a battle against those who claim that maintaining a less closure DURING IMPACT INTERVAL....blah blah blah.
Ask Tuxen, please, if he is capable to measure and analyze the RoC, say, from last parralel before impact to first parallel after impact.

Cheers

Isn't the impact interval, and what a player does consistently during that, all that matters?

Face
Path
Speed
AoA
Centre hit?

If a player ,like Furyk, hits it straighter with less RoC, good for him...

If Rickie does it with a high RoC, good for him....(and bombs it too)

When will people realise there is no one way to do it, just their own most optimal way.

I've no allegiance to one particular way of hitting a ball,or even one instructor, but only with thing that annoys me in golf.

When people say there is only one way to do something, and when proved there are other ways, possibly even better, they put their hands over their ears and go

"La la la la la la la la la la la la can't hear you, i'm still right, didn't hear you, so I'm still right...."

or just ask a totally different question to try to back up their information.

I have a question for anyone to answer....

Ben Hogan came into the last parallel before impact with a flat shaft plane and a wide open clubface.

Flat, wide and open...

He then rotated the crap out of it with massive forearm and core strength to square, then held off the release and closing of the face further with a massively strong pivot action through the ball.

Was his rate of closure not massive in this short space in time?

Sure there wasn't much after impact but he had the thing WIDE open at the last parallel. You could even argue against a lot of modern swings that have the face much more square to the plane at the last parallel before impact, but close after impact, that he had a higher rate of closure to impact then used his strength to hold onto it.

A low rate of closure from impact to the next parallel is a held off release and reduces power, Hogan was massively high closure to impact, then help it off after....

Then again, those with hands over their ears may not listen.

And let's face it, if you're hitting it well, Rate of Closure doesn't even matter.....

 

[Dariusz J.]

Isn't the impact interval, and what a player does consistently during that, all that matters?

I am really losing patience -- how many times should I say that it is of no friggin importance what is the RoC during the very impact ? What is important about RoC is how long is the part of the circle path when clubface is square to it, how early it becomes square and how late it stops to be square.

Ben Hogan came into the last parallel before impact with a flat shaft plane and a wide open clubface.

Flat, wide and open...

He then rotated the crap out of it with massive forearm and core strength to square, then held off the release and closing of the face further with a massively strong pivot action through the ball.

Was his rate of closure not massive in this short space in time?

Ben Hogan ? Post-secret Hogan trying to hold off something ? Rolling like crazy to square the clubface after the last parallel ? That Ben Hogan who said that hands do nothing conscious in the motion ?

And let's face it, if you're hitting it well, Rate of Closure doesn't even matter.....

What a nice motto for truth seekers, indeed.

Cheers

 

[Kevin Shields]

Dariusz, you have completely lost it, I'm sorry. Say whatever you want in response but it's hard watching you. Welsh dentist is right, you are just going to say you're right no matter what so I don't know why anyone bothers with you.

Ben Hogan who said the hands do nothing........sheesh

 

[welshdentist]

Ben Hogan ? Post-secret Hogan trying to hold off something ? Rolling like crazy to square the clubface after the last parallel ? That Ben Hogan who said that hands do nothing conscious in the motion ?
Cheers

What players say and what they do are different things. That's not rocket science. Coming back with "well he said he did nothing conscious' is ridiculous and actually made me laugh out loud....

Have you actually seen Hogan at the last parallel? Do you understand what open is? What rotated to the plane means?

Hold the club in front of you at belly height, turn 90 degrees to the right and bend forward into golf posture. The club will look 'shut' but there has been no manipulation, just a body turn. Hogan could have laid the back of his club on a tabletop coming into the ball.

Maybe i need to say it enough for you to realise, he was a hooker. Pre secret was square at the top but got under plane a bit and rotated the face shut too quickly.

Hogan was open with the club face, really open and laid off post secret, to compensate for his hook due to his rate of closure from the top to impact. He grew up rolling the crap out of it to hit low hooks to get distance, any fan or histrorian of the game knows this. His hook drove him off tour.

When he got really open and laid off post secret he didn't have to worry about his 'unconcious' fast closure rate, and fixed his hook. That's why his 'secret' wouldn't mean a thing to most golfers (slicers!) but would help a shut faced player or one who closed the face too fast.

Flat open and laid off worked really well for him doing this because he closed the face so hard and fast. Watch the videos at top and at the last parallel. It was open and laying on the plane near enough at the last parallel. It didn't rotate much post impact though and he resisted the closure with strength and pivot. It was an amazing pattern for Hogan, it really was....and he had the ball on a string. But he relied on timing, why else practice so much? If it's self timing why hit more balls than anyone else?

Remember his phrase post secret

"No matter how hard I tried I couldn't hit a hook"

Try and hit 100 low punch fades holding the face open, it takes strength.

His rate of closure was not conscious, but compared to other golfers and todays modern pros golfers, his clubface at the last parallel was WAYYYYYY open, near enough flat on the shaft plane. He had to rotate the crap out of it to square it, although to him it was unconscious.

It was open at P3, rotated to square then held square to the plane. Anti hook 100%

Ever heard of any pro who tried to hit his clubs, they either shanked them or sliced the crap out of them as they were so flat and bent open.

Feel free to post your slow face closing, "I shoot 1 over with no practice" swing I may learn something and am happy to be proved wrong. I will happily change my view if you show me Hogan is square coming down and didn't rotate the crap out of it to impact. The face wants to close, you have to overpower it with strength/pivot or both.

Everyone knows he rotated the face open swung flat and laid it off post secret. It combated his face closure to impact issues.

Sorry to burst the bubble.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Please define "face closure". Is there a distinction between the arcing trajectory of the clubhead vs. rotation of the clubface around the shaft axis? Is each equally responsible for this "gear-like effect"?

 

[welshdentist]

Kevin,

Reading what you just said. I may have wasted my time typing that.

Thanks anyway, was a bit worried I was way off for a millisecond....

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz, you have completely lost it, I'm sorry. Say whatever you want in response but it's hard watching you. Welsh dentist is right, you are just going to say you're right no matter what so I don't know why anyone bothers with you.

You know, your response is typical for people who are not capable to participate in the exchange of arguments. Besides, as a Manzella Instructor you should rather be aware what are trends in your forum. Actually, I am a very rare case of forumers here who are not afraid to admit that I was wrong or convinced. Did it a few noticeable times. Opposite to 95% of guys here (including almost all Manzella Instructors) who either finish with such pathetic verses as you just has done now or disappearing like beat dogs.

If you have something MERITORIC to add to the discussion -- please. I will not run away.

Ben Hogan who said the hands do nothing........sheesh

THE ACTION OF THE ARMS IS MOTIVATED BY THE MOVEMENTS OF THE BODY, AND THE HANDS CONSCIOUSLY DO NOTHING BUT MAINTAIN A FIRM GRIP ON THE CLUB.

Capital letters from 5L. It's repeated 2 or three times in the book.

Cheers

 

[blehnhard]

Is this the same Hogan who said in the same book - "I wish I had 3 right hands"? Must have been a real heavy club if he needed 3 right hands to just hold on to the club.

 

[btp]

Maybe we can get a spirit box and some paranormal experts to ask Hogan some questions since he's done playing. I thought the thread starter was pretty interesting, never heard that before and it goes against what you would think.

One question: Has trackman or enso or tech proved the steeper the swing the less rotation and flatter swing more rotation?

 

[Kevin Shields]

You know, your response is typical for people who are not capable to participate in the exchange of arguments. Besides, as a Manzella Instructor you should rather be aware what are trends in your forum. Actually, I am a very rare case of forumers here who are not afraid to admit that I was wrong or convinced. Did it a few noticeable times. Opposite to 95% of guys here (including almost all Manzella Instructors) who either finish with such pathetic verses as you just has done now or disappearing like beat dogs.

If you have something MERITORIC to add to the discussion -- please. I will not run away.






THE ACTION OF THE ARMS IS MOTIVATED BY THE MOVEMENTS OF THE BODY, AND THE HANDS CONSCIOUSLY DO NOTHING BUT MAINTAIN A FIRM GRIP ON THE CLUB.

Capital letters from 5L. It's repeated 2 or three times in the book.

Cheers

The entire Manzella academy is based on admitting wrongs, upgrading to things that work. Younarenthe only one who has typical answers. Half the forum members can tell us what you are going to say before you say it. I don't know how you can say that you admit you are wrong. Couple of quotes from Hogans book? C'mon. I'm sure he gave us all the secrets. As blepharospasm said, must've been a pretty heavy club to need three right hands he wasn't using.

What do you have to say to that? Why would Hogan say he wanted three right hands if he wasn't consciously using them?

And I'm very capable of participating in arguments.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Is this the same Hogan who said in the same book - "I wish I had 3 right hands"? Must have been a real heavy club if he needed 3 right hands to just hold on to the club.

As far as I am concerned, the phrase means he wanted to have his rear hand 3 times stronger. If one has a 3 times stronger hand he can use it 3 times more powerfully on a subconscious level.
He does not say what he wants to do with that hand -- he just want to have it stronger.

Maybe we can get a spirit box and some paranormal experts to ask Hogan some questions since he's done playing. I thought the thread starter was pretty interesting, never heard that before and it goes against what you would think.

Yeah, I have enough of these Hogan discussions as well. Please note that often it is not I who brings the name Hogan into threads.

The entire Manzella academy is based on admitting wrongs, upgrading to things that work. Younarenthe only one who has typical answers. Half the forum members can tell us what you are going to say before you say it. I don't know how you can say that you admit you are wrong. Couple of quotes from Hogans book? C'mon. I'm sure he gave us all the secrets. As blepharospasm said, must've been a pretty heavy club to need three right hands he wasn't using.

What do you have to say to that? Why would Hogan say he wanted three right hands if he wasn't consciously using them?

As above explained.

Find me at least one sentence where Hogan says that he must do this or that with one of his hands consciously during the motion. And do not stay behing ridiculous answers type: "we all know pros must use hands deliberately".
It is obvious that hands are not dead. Even Hogan did not need to underline it. The key is to refrain with conscious actions.

Cheers

 

[Jared Willerson]

I got the t-shirt, tatoo, and STD from trying to take the hands out of the swing and just pivot around. Underplane translates in all languages.

 

[welshdentist]

Was I wrong saying Hogan was way open and rotated it hard to square on the downswing? In the main from the last parallel to impact? Conscious or unconsciously....

Simple question, not saying if it is right, wrong or optimal.

All I can hear about my post is the sound of one hand clapping.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Was I wrong saying Hogan was way open and rotated it hard to square on the downswing? In the main from the last parallel to impact? Conscious or unconsciously....

Simple question, not saying if it is right, wrong or optimal.

All I can hear about my post is the sound of one hand clapping.

I will show you some pics when I return home. Then you decide yourself what to say. Deal ?

Cheers