Hip motion - goat humping and other things...

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golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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No commercial interest in the answers but would value thoughts please.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlzCoxiTdg[/media]

Thanks (esp to INCHMARLODC on youtube who allowed me to use some of his footage)
 
golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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spktho said:
The camera angles really play a part in the appearance of the "goat humping".
Click to expand...

To an extent ... but there is something else going on... even taking camera angle variations into account there is a big difference between Ross Fisher and Hogan/Trevino. The angle of the hips/belt line remains angled downwards in Hogan/Trevino...but the belt is more horizontal and up ward moving at impact in the humpers.

The biggest humpers have a wide variation in shaft angle between address and impact (not that it matters too much)....but it looks painful on the spine to do it!

Fisher and McIlroy have big variation in spine angle between address and impact with painful looking head dips...

David Toms (brown outfit) and Dustin Johnson(last player) looks most natural (spine does not get so crumpled) of the non-Hogan/Trevino group.
 
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drulf

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Goat imaging in Golf Instruction

So- if you picture/hump a small goat to the left (goat faces the target) - you´ll be Hogan, Trevino or any Dariusz-like golfer.

A medium-sized goat to the left- you´re Tiger 2000.

A huge goat right in front of you- young European Ryder Cup player 2010

Goat moving on an endless belt toward the target in front of you- S&T

But if you have Educated Hands as per something the Goat can be Placed Anywhere you Wish
 
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golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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drulf said:
So- if you picture/hump a small goat to the left (goat faces the target) - you´ll be Hogan, Trevino or any Dariusz-like golfer.

A medium-sized goat to the left- you´re Tiger 2000.

A huge goat right in front of you- young European Ryder Cup player 2010

Goat moving on an endless belt toward the target in front of you- S&T

But if you have Educated Hands as per something the Goat can be Placed Anywhere you Wish
Click to expand...

:) that pretty much sums it up !!

The Tiger image was from his amateur days ?1996 US amateur (i think)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Igy5-J78Ek[/media]

...he showed great athleticism in his goat humping at such a tender age! Rory seems very similar to him I think ...but Ross Fisher really goes after it...

It does beg the question...do the big goat humpers adopt an address position that is to their benfit if they have such dramatically different impact positions??

More images to follow!
 
golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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Sam and Ben really seemed to have efficient motions - their address and impact positions seem to be matched - both had dynamic motions, both swung the club well and comfortably into their latter years.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KI9XsiiA-Q[/media]

Are the best of the last decade missing something or is this a better way to swing? For me Tiger 1996 looks more comfortable than Rory here...and yet Rory's motion at full speed gets enormous praise for its beauty and power. Rory is an exceptional golfer, loved the way he hit his iron shot to 18 on Sunday - big and bold and beautifully executed...but does he swing it as well as Hogan and Snead??

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pIUNYExiFw[/media]

I have similar analysis for Richie3jack if he would like to see it...I think there is more to address than he thinks and he may need to look at how flat his irons are... ;)
 
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Curbanski

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For me, appearing to "goat hump," comes with really turning (and lifting) my rib cage (upper left pec) hard into my left bicep/ upper arm. I think its sometimes called "flinging the arm off of the chest."

If I were to throw a club (left handed) down range (no more than 10' off the surface,) I would throw further getting the power from the straightening left leg to that left arm by powering the chest into it. Need a big pivot of course!

If you 've practiced hitting with the left arm only, using the rib cage to both turn and lift against the upper arm, results in lots of power.

I think I would do the same with a frisbee throw if I was going for distance.

With both hands on the club, and arms at approx 9:00 in the DS, I krank (pivot) the chest pretty hard against that upper left arm but down toward the ball / front of the ball. When I really get it going, my back hand can barely keep its grip approaching impact.

And momentum stands me up into the goat humping look.

Sometimes, I wonder if that isn't what's going on with VJ when he lets go of the back hand just after impact.

Just my .02
 
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golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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Even Mike Austin (of the famous compound pivot) looks pretty neat - I would have thought that his pivot demanded a hump to left field... but there is nothing weird going on with Mike...and he was dynamic in his pivot +++ (NB. this is not meant to dissolve into an "Austinology" ramble)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrx2aqoh4G8[/media]
 
golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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Curbanski said:
Another video of Mike Austin in his earlier days.

http://www.mikeaustingolf.com/video/mike_swing.wmv
Click to expand...

Thanks C'ski. That's the one !

As far as the image of goat humping it really looks like Trevino, Hogan and Snead have simlar hip action - their address posture matches their impact positions, their shaft angle does not change much and their head moves little.

The others...Ross Fisher and Rory McIlroy seem to have tricky movements of the spine and head....they looked cramped at impact (although their swing motions look fluid at full speed)...it can't be as efficient to do it their way, surely??

The CF/swing right people (like Tiger) will always have a bit of a hump as far as I can see.

Any others thoughts?

Thanks to all for looking.
 
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ej20

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golfbulldog said:
No commercial interest in the answers but would value thoughts please.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlzCoxiTdg[/media]

Thanks (esp to INCHMARLODC on youtube who allowed me to use some of his footage)
Click to expand...

The technical term is early extension.This is purely a loss of posture too early in the downswing around the hips,lower spine area.As the spine is flexible,it is possible to keep your head down while early extending.

The only player in this video that's doing it is the first golfer in my opinion.McIlroy is not early extending.His hips are so open at impact it's impossible to judge whether it is or not from this angle.The camera angle needs to be perpendicular to his hips to see.

Hogan if anything does the opposite of early extending.He gets even more bent over at impact with his tush behind the tushline.
 
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jonnygrouville

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I agree. Ross Fisher is the only guy here with proper early extension. His head has dropped (not necessarily a bad thing?) and moved away from the target line at impact.

Why does he do it? I don't know. Hopefully someone else will be able to shed some light on the matter...
 
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Dan44GT

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I may be all wet here, but I would say that Everyone has extension through impact with a full swing, unless you had no forward pivot and you were back to your address position while making contact. What EJ eluded to with the camera being perpendicular to the hips (right side view) is exactly right. Basically what I'm saying is that forward tilt at setup turns into a combo of forward and side bend at impact, at least with anybody that clears their hips. Put it this way, in 3D your spine will not keep the same frontal angle throughout the swing. In 2D it may appear that way, but the rotations and lateral motion are not being accounted for.
 
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ej20

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Dan44GT said:
I may be all wet here, but I would say that Everyone has extension through impact with a full swing, unless you had no forward pivot and you were back to your address position while making contact. What EJ eluded to with the camera being perpendicular to the hips (right side view) is exactly right. Basically what I'm saying is that forward tilt at setup turns into a combo of forward and side bend at impact, at least with anybody that clears their hips. Put it this way, in 3D your spine will not keep the same frontal angle throughout the swing. In 2D it may appear that way, but the rotations and lateral motion are not being accounted for.
Click to expand...

Some players have zero early extension(Hogan,Trevino).Some players have maximum early extension(Fisher,VJ Singh).Most players are somewhere in between.

Could be a flexibility issue.Could be a technique issue.Could be a bit of both.

The best way is zero early extension but Fisher and Singh has proved it doesn't matter.Nicklaus also had quite a bit of early extension particularly with the driver.
 
rcw

rcw

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It is the pelvis going into posterior tilt through impact(Goat humping). All the powerful players do it. That is what allows them to rotate faster. It is NOT early extension.Someone with strong transverse abdominals and core will go into posterior tilt without getting too close or coming off line. Thats why Rory can do it and not get off the so called tush line, just like Tiger. Tiger has more room than Rory but Rory does not early extend.
Vijay also does it a bunch. Some just create more space than others( between their arms and body). Some do not, like Vijay. Rory gets alittle tight too. But he creates all the space he needs.
It is a powerful move for sure.
 
rcw

rcw

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In comparing Tigers old motion and Rory. I think Rory's move is better. He goes into posterior tilt while keeping his right shoulder high. This will keep him from getting excessively inside out. Tigers right shoulder had the tendency to get too low and swinging too far out to the right. Blocks and Hooks.
Mcilroys uper body action allows him to trace a much better plane line.
Just my opinion...
 
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ej20

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rcw said:
It is the pelvis going into posterior tilt through impact(Goat humping). All the powerful players do it. That is what allows them to rotate faster. It is NOT early extension.Someone with strong transverse abdominals and core will go into posterior tilt without getting too close or coming off line. Thats why Rory can do it and not get off the so called tush line, just like Tiger. Tiger has more room than Rory but Rory does not early extend.
Vijay also does it a bunch. Some just create more space than others( between their arms and body). Some do not, like Vijay. Rory gets alittle tight too. But he creates all the space he needs.
It is a powerful move for sure.
Click to expand...

The operative word here is "early".Hogan and Trevino don't go into extension until after impact whereas Fisher and VJ starts humping at transition.

I don't see how humping early rotates the hips faster.
 
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