Hit down with the driver = too much spin?

[birdie_man]

Hmmm.. Brian is the only one that seems to have anything to say about the actual subject at hand. I'm talking specifically about the increase of spin because of a descending blow.

Maybe you should have made it a "Manzella only".................

 

[Ringer]

lol birdieman.

I just want to avoid the "this is how you hit down" and the "we should all hit down because ____ does it on tour"... thread.

 

[mgranato]

A driver has bulge and roll, so there are actually three possible lofts (and spin numbers) to get with one perticular head depending on the point of impact (low, mid, high). Just another variable to consider.

 

[JeffM]

Steve - you wrote-: "If that point rotates around the balls CG, then spin will be created. Unless you want to dispute that point graphs and data are really quite irrelevant."

Of course! Spin is created on ALL driver shots unless the clubface hits the ball on its equator perfectly square and the clubface has zero loft. Therefore, all driver shots have backspin. Theoretically, a descending clubhead swingpath decreases the "effective" loft at impact, and it should decrease spin for any GIVEN amount of clubhead speed. Therefore, my comments and those graphs are seemingly relevant.

Jeff.

 

[Ringer]

Steve - you wrote-: "If that point rotates around the balls CG, then spin will be created. Unless you want to dispute that point graphs and data are really quite irrelevant."

Of course! Spin is created on ALL driver shots unless the clubface hits the ball on its equator perfectly square and the clubface has zero loft. Therefore, all driver shots have backspin. Theoretically, a descending clubhead swingpath decreases the "effective" loft at impact, and it should decrease spin for any GIVEN amount of clubhead speed. Therefore, my comments and those graphs are seemingly relevant.

Jeff.

AHHH simply not true Jeff. A descending clubhead path has NOTHING TO DO WITH LOFT!! The angle the shaft is leaning forward does! Now the correlation is that most people who have a descending blow often lean the shaft forward more. However, someone with proper axis tilt NEGATES this.

 

[JeffM]

Steve

The logic of your reasoning escapes me. I take it as self-evident that hitting down on the ball is equivalent to stating the clubshaft is leaning forward at impact - and that it "effectively" decreases loft at impact. I also cannot understand how "proper axis tilt negates this" - because I believe that one drives one's hands down to the impact position even if one's spinal axis is tilted away from the target.

See - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqsf4bEBF-Q&mode=related&search=

Tiger Woods has a lot of spinal tilt AWAY from the target at impact, but his hands are driving the clubshaft downwards and there is considerable forward lean of the clubshaft at impact.

Jeff.

 

[jmessner]

Not sure if this helps, but the discussion of effective loft vs angle of attack was addressed in this thread. It is possible to hit up on the ball and have a forward leaning shaft which might be a more expected result with someone trying to hit down with lots of axis tilt. Wishon has also said he has noted this in his recent studies using Trackman along with clubpath angle measuring equipment. I'd love to see that data.

BTW, for those interested, Tutleman has released some freeware trajectory modeling software for driver fitting. See here. You can experiment with loft, angle of attack, etc.

Jay

 

[JeffM]

Jay - you wrote-: "It is possible to hit up on the ball and have a forward leaning shaft which might be a more expected result with someone trying to hit down with lots of axis tilt."

I read that thread and I still cannot understand how it is possible for the clubhead to be moving upwards while the clubshaft is forward leaning. Could you explain how that it is possible - presuming that you are not referring to some kick-phenomenon that causes the end of the clubshaft to be backward-leaning while the majority of the clubshaft is forward-leaning?


Jeff.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jay - you wrote-: "It is possible to hit up on the ball and have a forward leaning shaft which might be a more expected result with someone trying to hit down with lots of axis tilt."

I read that thread and I still cannot understand how it is possible for the clubhead to be moving upwards while the clubshaft is forward leaning. Could you explain how that it is possible - presuming that you are not referring to some kick-phenomenon that causes the end of the clubshaft to be backward-leaning while the majority of the clubshaft is forward-leaning?


Jeff.

He is referring to the shaft kicking foward which is what happens in a real golf swing. If some of the greatest drivers of the golf ball, the hands are either even or slightly ahead of the ball while the shaft looks like this <, causing the clubhead to rise into the ball.

 

[jmessner]

Jay - you wrote-: "It is possible to hit up on the ball and have a forward leaning shaft which might be a more expected result with someone trying to hit down with lots of axis tilt."

I read that thread and I still cannot understand how it is possible for the clubhead to be moving upwards while the clubshaft is forward leaning. Could you explain how that it is possible - presuming that you are not referring to some kick-phenomenon that causes the end of the clubshaft to be backward-leaning while the majority of the clubshaft is forward-leaning?


Jeff.

Jeff - The point of that thread was that the center of rotation of clubhead is NOT necessarily in line with the shaft. I had always assumed that the center of rotation was basically at the butt end of the shaft near impact since the head was moving much faster than everything else. If that was true then the shaft angle would basically define angle of attack. But, after reading mandrin's stuff and tracing a few pro swings with a video analysis program, I found the center of rotation of the clubhead near impact was usually a point just above the left shoulder which means the angle of attack is not necessarily (most cases was not) defined by the shaft angle.

I know it's not intuitive but after hearing Tom Wishon (clubmaking guru) mention the same thing about his recent measurements I'm tending to believe it's real.

Jim - I tend to think of the forward bending of the shaft adding dynamic loft but not really changing the angle of attack. Most bending profiles I've seen of shaft bending during the swing indicate that the shaft has reached it's maximum bend before impact. In any case, this topic still gets some spirited discussion in the clubmaking forums as well. At some point, I expect the measuring equipment will be good enough to quantify all this.

Jay

 

[Dana Dahlquist]

He is referring to the shaft kicking foward which is what happens in a real golf swing. If some of the greatest drivers of the golf ball, the hands are either even or slightly ahead of the ball while the shaft looks like this <, causing the clubhead to rise into the ball.

BINGO!!!!!!!!
Many may feel like they hit down on it however, not fully possible for good driving. Anyway guess I need to read the full thread first but this one is all that is needed..

 

[JeffM]

Jay

I can accept the idea that the proximal clubshaft could be forwards-tilted while the distal end of the clubshaft could be backwards-tilted at impact. However, I am not seeing this phenomenon in high quality swing videos of PGA tour golfers where the FPS rate is >2,000 frames per second, which is fast enough to capture this phenomenon. Do you have swing videos which demonstrate this phenomenon in PGA tour golfers who use stiff shafts? Also, can you quantify the magnitude of this phenomenon?

Dana - Why is it not possible to hit down with the driver for "good driving"? In Bobby Clampett's book "The Impact Zone" he has many photographs demonstrating this phenomenon (eg. Vijah Singh, Phil Mickelson) and the clubhead is definitely moving downwards at impact. He also states that he did personal experiments and demonstrated increased distance and increased accuracy when hitting down with a driver.

Jeff.

 

[golfbulldog]

Hitting down - are we looking at the clubhead when we should be looking at PP3???

The clubhead movement( up or down) is always confused due to shaft changes.

Isn't Homer Kelley's point that the thrust of pp3 is always down to low point ( ie. after impact if ball is positioned aft of lowpoint)??

Should we use Swingvision to monitor direction of pp3 rather than clubhead before and after impact???

Sorry to threadjack - i know Ringer wants to know about spin but i have never heard anybody use pp3 on swingvision as a monitor of swinging up or down...

 

[jmessner]

Jay

I can accept the idea that the proximal clubshaft could be forwards-tilted while the distal end of the clubshaft could be backwards-tilted at impact. However, I am not seeing this phenomenon in high quality swing videos of PGA tour golfers where the FPS rate is >2,000 frames per second, which is fast enough to capture this phenomenon. Do you have swing videos which demonstrate this phenomenon in PGA tour golfers who use stiff shafts? Also, can you quantify the magnitude of this phenomenon?

Dana - Why is it not possible to hit down with the driver for "good driving"? In Bobby Clampett's book "The Impact Zone" he has many photographs demonstrating this phenomenon (eg. Vijah Singh, Phil Mickelson) and the clubhead is definitely moving downwards at impact. He also states that he did personal experiments and demonstrated increased distance and increased accuracy when hitting down with a driver.

Jeff.

Distal..Proximal...Jeff - You are in the medical field aren't you?

Actually, I wasn't referring to the bend in any specific section of the shaft, rather that the shaft as a whole would be forward leaning - maybe a better way to put it would be to say the hands would be ahead of the ball. I understand that for most good swings the shaft tip end (distal) will be bent forward. Are you talking more about the shaft tip bend or the angle of attack(motion) of the clubhead at impact or both?

Any of those high-framerate vidoes on the web somewhere?

Jay

 

[Dana Dahlquist]

point that the thrust of pp3 is always down to low point ( ie. after impact if ball is positioned aft of lowpoint)??
This is the answer..Or at least close to what you want to see. I like to see a tee lay over after a driver swing.

 

[Dariusz J.]

So...you guys tend to believe that the impact of the forward lean of the shaft (or better said, dynamic loft) plays bigger role in backspin rate changes than it was suspected before, right ?

Tell me also please when does the forward lean of the driver shaft start to occur, in your opinion.

Cheers