Hogan vs. modern swing

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EdZ

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I'm a big fan of Hogan's swing and I'd love to see some discussion of what some of you think the +/- of following his book to the letter are.

What would some of you consider his 'flaws'?

Of course, he was doing many things to prevent hooks/encourage fades, but beyond those, what do you see in the modern players vs. what Hogan described?

Having read Brian's article on grip, it seems pretty much right out of 5 fundamentals (with the obvious of being slightly stronger).
 
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benhogan54

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I think his book was/is dead on describing what actually visually happens during the swing through the pictures. I don't agree with all of Hogan's swing thoughts and images. Having most players attempt to turn their hips to start the downswing is just disasterous and leads to coming over the top.

What Hogan describes in his book and what he actually did are different. He had much more lateral slide than he thought he did and his plane was flatter than he recommended. He was also more relaxed in the arms than he recommended. The tour swings of today are much more upright going back and most players are more quiet in the legs.
 
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Eagletau

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quote:Having most players attempt to turn their hips to start the downswing is just disasterous and leads to coming over the top.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with benbogan45 & John Dunigan in this matter.

To imitate his swing, lots of bad backs, to take from, lots of good things. It seems that swings could be like fingerprints or signatures. Illegal and undesirable to imitate. But imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
 
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mb6606

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I think Hogan's swing is about as easy as it gets. Knudson confirmed it.
Try this. Swing to the top with the right hand only. Now start the down swing with the right hand and shoulder and swing. Do not move or rotate the hips and head and eyes stay facing the ball. Over the top outside in -- right???
Take is back to the top right hand only. Now leave the hands where they are and bump the hips toward the target and rotate the hips gently. Keep the hands back as long as possible and stay facing the ball. Now Swing.
Inside out --- Right???
What could be simpler.
 
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benhogan54

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"Now start the down swing with the right hand and shoulder and swing."

I do this alot as a drill. I go to the top, hold my body totally still, and push my arms and hands downplane. Not over the top if you know where to swing to. You don't swing at the ball, you swing back to the shaft plane.

ALL good swings are started with a slide of the hips back toward the target. I just don't think this move is something that needs to be done on purpose. It is a natural athletic movement. When you throw a ball do you think of stepping toward the target and rotating? I certainly don't. Yes my body leads on video tape, but mentally I am just attempting to unload the ball to the catcher as fast as I can. Same with golf. Just try to throw the club back to the shaft plane from the top and you body with respond naturally and correctly.
 
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EdZ

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Right, I know that the specifics as 'described' in five lessons are somewhat different than how he actually swung, but I'm more interested in how he 'actually' swung, vs. modern day theories.

Clearly modern day theories advocate a more upright plane, but some of that can be attributed to differences in posture (Hogan's trunk being less inclined, vs. say, Jack, more shallow turn, although Hogan's club was actually steeper than most see IMO, fairly much the same in relation the trunk as many modern players).

I totally agree about the hip turn... that 'elasic' image had me on the wrong track for a while as a kid, and had me driving too hard later... 'stable' shift is certainly key.

mb6606 - what do you mean by "Knudson confirmed it" - I know little about him or his swing other than he was a solid player (Canadian eh?)

I think Hogan's drill of 'feeling' like your elbows were strapped (and your legs) - and actually doing that for practice, is one of 'the' best ways to get many key swing feels across for those that are already athletic.

Page 102 in five lessons - most, in fact nearly all, average players need to get that one!
 
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rosser

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Hogan did not turn his hips,until impact, his hips moved diagonally, and had it not be for Micheal Hoke Austin, his career would not been one you all are still talking about.

Modern day golfers, are not better than Hogan's swing days, and surely never ever will make it to Austins days.

One thing is sure no back problems or anything coming out of there swings.

Tiger has back problems, look at all the back problems , hip replacements, neck injury,shoulders etc. Hip replacements are caused by incorrect hip movement, turning when they should be moving diagonally.

Don't look at batters for a golf swing, they are using the whole field, look at the pitchers to see the golf swing.

Swing well!

Chasmaster
 
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taustin

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I learned to play solely on Hogan's book. carried a 4 hdcp at age 30. Decided to learn to draw the ball and it was the worst decision I ever made. fought a hook for years and carried a 10 hndcp. finally got smart and went back to a left to right ball flight 2 yrs ago and now have a 7 hdcp.
I am 50 years old and no back problems at all.No longer have the flexibility of 20 yrs ago, but I an still long and straight. FWIW.
 
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EdZ

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quote:Originally posted by rosser

Hogan did not turn his hips,until impact, his hips moved diagonally, and had it not be for Micheal Hoke Austin, his career would not been one you all are still talking about.

Modern day golfers, are not better than Hogan's swing days, and surely never ever will make it to Austins days.

One thing is sure no back problems or anything coming out of there swings.

Tiger has back problems, look at all the back problems , hip replacements, neck injury,shoulders etc. Hip replacements are caused by incorrect hip movement, turning when they should be moving diagonally.

Don't look at batters for a golf swing, they are using the whole field, look at the pitchers to see the golf swing.

Swing well!

Chasmaster
Click to expand...

Care to elaborate on Austin?
 
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cdog

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Ragman understands Austin, maybe he will chime in, he described the hip motion as 4 oclock, 10 oclock, but im not im sure i understand the diagonal movement.
 
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mb6606

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mb6606 - what do you mean by "Knudson confirmed it" - I know little about him or his swing other than he was a solid player (Canadian eh?)
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Knudson studied Hogan and adopted his principles. If you ever get a chance to view a clip of his swing -- it was one of the most beautiful ever! You can still find used copies of his book "The Natural Golf Swing" on the net.
 
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mb6606

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ALL good swings are started with a slide of the hips back toward the target. I just don't think this move is something that needs to be done on purpose. It is a natural athletic movement.
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It should be natural or appear that way. Knudson said the same thing. The key is to lag the arms, hands, shaft and club head. Just as Hogan pictured it on pags 94-95 in "Modern Fundamentals of Golf". Couples is a good example.
 
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bantamben1

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i agree brian, hogan wasnt flat his club always traced the plane lineand he dispalyed the imperatives perfectly thats why he hit so pure in the shell video he hit just as many draws as fades hit every fairway and every green and had a very short arm swing but a full shoulder turn . i think that short arm swing worked better with his tempo. personally i find it easier to sustain the lag with a shorter arm swing. think about when you want to crush a pitching wedge you dont swing longer you take it back and increse your lag and hit hard i have a friend who gets a full turn but barely gets the club past 90 degrees to the ground and carries it three houndred yards and hes like 5' 7' maybe 140 lbs.
 
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EdZ

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So re: Hogan's actual swing (not how he described it), what does anyone see that they don't like, or wouldn't teach, or is 'out of date'?

Clearly his move requires an athletic motion, and not eveyone can do it.

How would you compare Hogan vs. Tiger?

Tiger, and most others, clearly have the flat left wrist sooner than Hogan, and is obviously more outside/steep going back.
 
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