Hoganesque Release

[Lifter]

Thanks so much to DCgolf, spktho, Lindsey and Kevin for helping me out in the previous thread. I thought it'd be polite to move my questions to a new thread, so here it is. Below are some recent videos of my swing:

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spktho just provided some great thoughts on my flawed, chicken wing release. I went back and watched NSA and noticed that Brian associated the chicken wing with lack of left forearm rotation. That makes a hell of a lot of sense!

What I wonder now is the following: how can I perform more forearm rotation without getting the clubface to rollover too much?

To give you a sense of what I mean, please see this picture of Hogan at 6:38 into the video:

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Notice that the clubface hasn't flipped over when it exits. I think that's the essence of my question. I currently get the clubface to look like that by chicken winging it. How can I get the face to look like that without chicken winging it? I'm sure that a weaker grip is part of the solution. But what other feels might I need to employ?

 

[spktho]

What I wonder now is the following: how can I perform more forearm rotation without getting the clubface to rollover too much?

Notice that the clubface hasn't flipped over when it exits. I think that's the essence of my question. I currently get the clubface to look like that by chicken winging it. How can I get the face to look like that without chicken winging it? I'm sure that a weaker grip is part of the solution. But what other feels might I need to employ?

Simply gripping the club in a left hand neutral to slightly strong and a weak right hand grip will essentially force you to the correct swivel with "rolling" the left forearm and having the left elbow down into the follow through. After that, you can vary the release for whatever shot you want to hit or look however you want. I think Hogan looks that way because he is delaying the release as an anti-left swing, but he can do it with his elbow somewhat down because of his grip. Whereas with your current grip you have only one release option--which is basically not releasing the clubhead--to keep the ball on the course.

Seeing your face-on swing, I think you will also have to work on getting your hands more forward into impact when you change your grip. It looks in that video that you have ball back a bit and have a slight flip, probably to get the ball up in the air to compensate for your strong grip.

 

[Kevin Shields]

How would you ever think that you could acheive a similar look without having a similar grip?

 

[Lifter]

Thanks spktho! I'll worry about lag if I begin to consistently not compress the ball. Kevin, my grip is weaker than it was. I just need to make it even weaker.

 

[Matt Bryda]

What I wonder now is the following: how can I perform more forearm rotation without getting the clubface to rollover too much?

IMO..
Grip the club less in the fingers of both hands and start your swing from a more forward hand location. You may even want to experiment with larger grips.

 

[Lifter]

IMO..
Grip the club less in the fingers of both hands and start your swing from a more forward hand location. You may even want to experiment with larger grips.

Would larger grips be more appropriate for my fingers, which are relatively long, thin and weak?

 

[spktho]

Thanks spktho! I'll worry about lag if I begin to consistently not compress the ball. Kevin, my grip is weaker than it was. I just need to make it even weaker.

I wasn't referring to more lag. Just if you have the same impact alignment as you do now with a neutral grip, then I think you will be prone to hitting behind the ball or thinning it.

 

[Lifter]

Good to know, thanks spktho. Thinking more about Bryda's point about hands forward, this also might help me fight my underplane issues. Thanks Matt!

 

[BrendanC]

I think there is too much wrist cock in the backswing.

Hard to get rid of this in the downswing.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Would larger grips be more appropriate for my fingers, which are relatively long, thin and weak?

I think your left hand grip has too much of a "grab" look

 

[Olof Karlson]

If I can say something I think it looks like your pivot needs some work too. You lower yourself a lot in the backswing and you look like you go a little bit to the left foot in the backswing. I would work on that pivot, I think you could get more power.

I like the swing though, looks like it has a lot of potential.

 

[Lifter]

Just got back from hitting balls tonight. spktho, thanks so much for your help. In conjunction with weakening my grip, I found that what really worked was feeling my right hand release as early and aggressively as possible with the clubhead exiting just a couple feet above my shoetops (although I'm sure it literally wasn't). It was pretty clear when I didn't release enough, because fat shots (right divot) resulted. And on the rare occasions when I hit weak thins, I think I actually got above the plane.

Dariusz, thanks for your help as well. I messaged him and he suggested that I align myself more diagonally, which also helped a lot. I'm not sure why people like footwedge act like total d$#%heads so him (don't know the history). But I think Dariusz is a very valuable contributor to the forum with a lot of interesting ideas. I wish he'd post here more often.

 

[Lifter]

I think your left hand grip has too much of a "grab" look

Not exactly sure what this comment by Mr. Bryda means.

 

[spktho]

It was pretty clear when I didn't release enough, because fat shots (right divot) resulted. And on the rare occasions when I hit weak thins, I think I actually got above the plane.

Without seeing your new action, as I suggested before, these misses may be from a bit of a flip. And be careful with using too much right hand/wrist( right arm from the elbow straightening is ok) as that could exacerbate the flip. Make sure you get the hands forward enough and keep the "tail bone in front of the neck bone"(Manzella).

On a side track. The issues with Darius are that he maintains there is only one correct way to perform a golf swing (Hogan) and he tends to resort to insults with those who disagree.

 

[Lifter]

Without seeing your new action, as I suggested before, these misses may be from a bit of a flip. And be careful with using too much right hand/wrist( right arm from the elbow straightening is ok) as that could exacerbate the flip. Make sure you get the hands forward enough and keep the "tail bone in front of the neck bone"(Manzella).

On a side track. The issues with Darius are that he maintains there is only one correct way to perform a golf swing (Hogan) and he tends to resort to insults with those who disagree.

I'm having a difficult time grasping how to properly release without flipping. I could easily take a strong grip, hang on with plenty of lag and block a straight one out there. But that block would have no release.

With a weaker grip, that swing would result in wipes to the right. So I must aggressively release. But how do I aggressively release without flipping?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Based on those videos your grip is the root cause; everything after that (including your setup) is anti-hook.

 

[spktho]

You definitely look comfortable with the no release block and I know it feels real good and compressed too, it is a pattern I sometimes need to use but have learned to do it with a neutral grip and setting up way left. Some real good golfers play(ed) that way. As was said before by Lindsey, I think, there's more than one way to do it. But, you should be able to have a bigger repertoire of shots by weakening your grip and learning different releases.

It is difficult to say for sure if you are flipping without current video. The proper release is a swivel or roll of the hands so that the left wrist is kept as close to flat as you can at impact and then the back of the left hand or wristwatch is facing directly behind you when hands are waist high. Brian had me go all the way to wedding ring up and left elbow down like NSA. Then he (and Kevin) suggested to do the NSA release to wedding ring up but hit a baby fade. Now that was tough, but taught a more delayed release. So then you could have the feel of a full release, a delayed release, a no release, and any where in between if you desired.

It is much easier to show than to describe in words. You may have to feel like you are using your right hand more, because of your long standing non-release, as long as you are swiveling or rolling and not flipping by straightening your right wrist too much at impact.

I hope I'm not confusing things too much.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

wedding ring up with a fade, i remember when people some people said you couldn't do it *rolls eyes*

 

[Lifter]

spktho, thanks for such a thorough post. That is exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for! I'll study NSA some more and see if this helps me come up with a couple more potential feels.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

You definitely look comfortable with the no release block and I know it feels real good and compressed too, it is a pattern I sometimes need to use but have learned to do it with a neutral grip and setting up way left. Some real good golfers play(ed) that way. As was said before by Lindsey, I think, there's more than one way to do it. But, you should be able to have a bigger repertoire of shots by weakening your grip and learning different releases.

It is difficult to say for sure if you are flipping without current video. The proper release is a swivel or roll of the hands so that the left wrist is kept as close to flat as you can at impact and then the back of the left hand or wristwatch is facing directly behind you when hands are waist high. Brian had me go all the way to wedding ring up and left elbow down like NSA. Then he (and Kevin) suggested to do the NSA release to wedding ring up but hit a baby fade. Now that was tough, but taught a more delayed release. So then you could have the feel of a full release, a delayed release, a no release, and any where in between if you desired.

It is much easier to show than to describe in words. You may have to feel like you are using your right hand more, because of your long standing non-release, as long as you are swiveling or rolling and not flipping by straightening your right wrist too much at impact.

I hope I'm not confusing things too much.

Man, great post. This just described my entire learning curve in golf up to this point. I began golf as a no release blocker. Started with a neutral grip as a right to righter golfer. Learned to strengthen the grip and keep it in play. I really struggled with learning to release it. I still do sometimes. I wanted to draw the ball so bad. Then I learned to hook the crap out of it trying to hit it left with what I didn't realize was an anti left swing. Now I generally use a slightly strong left hand grip, and neutral right hand with a delayed release. It lets me still release it hard but not worry so much about left. I still can't quite do that full roll release, just feels too unnatural to me and I hit too many hooks. Better then that left, right, left business I was up to before though. Mostly I've learned on some days I've just got to accept what I've brought to the course that day and make it work with what I know I can do. If its that aim left block then so be it. Pretty much everything I've learned about my swing, I've learned from reading this website. I feel like i've finally begun to understand why I hit certain shots the way I do. Not just swinging at the ball and hoping it stays on the course. I might not always be able to fix it, but at least I have a better understanding of why things go wrong when they do.