"Hogan's Secret"- yes, he really had one (Audio)
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Why then, given what you said, do you have such an issue with the Medicus causing over rotation? The reason I don't think that is an issue is directly related to your comments on Hogan's secret - rotation - and learning to feel FULL roll of the forearm on the downswing. Agreed though, that you must 'trust' that rotation, and most higher handicaps have to learn 'solid' well before trying the weak grip/rotation route. As for Venturi, not sure why so harsh, I think his "pull the shaft" at halfway down drill is a great way to learn the feels of 'drag' and loaded lag.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Venturi is always held up as the guy that says Hogan did not have a technique secret.
birdie_man
New
Cool...I swing like this (not as good as Hogan...at least not yet [8D]).
Fans his arms on the backswing eh. Hmm.
K, if you could answer some questions for me that would be awesome...it would really help me to sort this out.
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I also open the face on the backswing a lot...it feels very natural to me and it seems to just go with my body turn. I also have a neutral grip (trust me it isn't weak) and my wrist is flat at the top with the clubface prolly slightly open.
My swing works great with long irons- I can hit my 5 iron probably as high as most people hit their 7 irons, and I also rarely miss to the left. Now, this is good for long irons but does not transfer so well to anything higher than a 7-8 iron...especially if I want a lower shot. And this swing DOES NOT work if my hands are ahead of the ball at setup...I need to use a different takeaway (dunno how to explain it really- prolly more of a 'normal' takeaway- more of a scoop than a sweep...more up and out than around my body).
My problem is my swing is too sweeping for those short clubs...and don't even get me started on wedges. I get short, high fluffers...and I can't hit it low with this swing- if I try to move it back it just goes more to the right (can't get clubface closed).
Anyhoo, ya that's me anyway.
Now, my QUESTION:
I assume Hogan could hit it low (of course). He must have used a different swing for his short irons right? The only way I can see him being able to alter his flight is if he kept the same ball potition (mid-forward) and just followed-through lower. Would it have to do maybe with the "Manzella pitch" style shot (where the wrist is more arched past the ball vs. the normal stly shot? i.e. the only difference is in his transition/downswing?
---or would he actually use a different takeaway like the one I mentioned above (prolly more of a 'normal' takeaway- more of a scoop takeaway than a sweep...more up and out than around my body)?
Fans his arms on the backswing eh. Hmm.
K, if you could answer some questions for me that would be awesome...it would really help me to sort this out.------------------------------------------------------------
I also open the face on the backswing a lot...it feels very natural to me and it seems to just go with my body turn. I also have a neutral grip (trust me it isn't weak) and my wrist is flat at the top with the clubface prolly slightly open.
My swing works great with long irons- I can hit my 5 iron probably as high as most people hit their 7 irons, and I also rarely miss to the left. Now, this is good for long irons but does not transfer so well to anything higher than a 7-8 iron...especially if I want a lower shot. And this swing DOES NOT work if my hands are ahead of the ball at setup...I need to use a different takeaway (dunno how to explain it really- prolly more of a 'normal' takeaway- more of a scoop than a sweep...more up and out than around my body).
My problem is my swing is too sweeping for those short clubs...and don't even get me started on wedges. I get short, high fluffers...and I can't hit it low with this swing- if I try to move it back it just goes more to the right (can't get clubface closed).
Anyhoo, ya that's me anyway.
Now, my QUESTION:
I assume Hogan could hit it low (of course). He must have used a different swing for his short irons right? The only way I can see him being able to alter his flight is if he kept the same ball potition (mid-forward) and just followed-through lower. Would it have to do maybe with the "Manzella pitch" style shot (where the wrist is more arched past the ball vs. the normal stly shot? i.e. the only difference is in his transition/downswing?
---or would he actually use a different takeaway like the one I mentioned above (prolly more of a 'normal' takeaway- more of a scoop takeaway than a sweep...more up and out than around my body)?
birdie - I suspect there is a key difference between what you describe, and what Hogan did, and that is being on plane - Hogan had 'on plane' rotation (really, one of the biggest key differences between hitting and swinging - rotation).
From what you describe, it sounds like you have a 'lift and roll' takeaway, which is very common and nearly impossible to recover from. Think of Ray Floyd - he had sort of a lift and roll, but he got away with it because he was able to drop it inside and get back on track - harder to do than just staying on plane.
Keep your hands 'inside' the clubhead until hip high - do split grip drills to get the feel, almost a hockey shot move - and get those hands 'under' the club as soon as possible (an early set).
From what you describe, it sounds like you have a 'lift and roll' takeaway, which is very common and nearly impossible to recover from. Think of Ray Floyd - he had sort of a lift and roll, but he got away with it because he was able to drop it inside and get back on track - harder to do than just staying on plane.
Keep your hands 'inside' the clubhead until hip high - do split grip drills to get the feel, almost a hockey shot move - and get those hands 'under' the club as soon as possible (an early set).
birdie_man
New
No I don't do that...good guess tho. Ur right tho, the swing has to be more around the body with that kind of hand rollover for the clubface to be able to get it to square. (i.e. have to sweep the club along the ground and not lift to the outside). I can't take it away too outside because it will not rotate with my body but more independently...ur right, this move is pretty much death from there.
Your also right about getting the club set fast...with this takeaway the club feels like it kinda sets itself with it's own weight. It just kinda "whips up" on it's own from the rotation of my arms and body. Like I said, feels like more of a sweep than a scoop takeaway.
Is this what you were saying EdZ?
Your also right about getting the club set fast...with this takeaway the club feels like it kinda sets itself with it's own weight. It just kinda "whips up" on it's own from the rotation of my arms and body. Like I said, feels like more of a sweep than a scoop takeaway.
Is this what you were saying EdZ?
David Alford
New
I liked what Venturi had to say about his critics:
"Take that you crummy bums"
That deserves to be in a book...
"Take that you crummy bums"
That deserves to be in a book...
David Alford
New
btw, Brian, if you understand what Hogan did, let's see you emulate his swing...
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Knowing how someone swings and what they do to achieve it has NOTHING to do with being able to "repeat it."
You've been gone for so long and the first couple posts i see of you are trying to stir the pot again.
why?
You've been gone for so long and the first couple posts i see of you are trying to stir the pot again.
why?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
David,
You ever see Leadbetter or Haney's hands through the ball...??
Ever see mine?
Surely, my hand conditions through the ball qualify me to your way of thinking then those of those other guys....right?
You ever see Leadbetter or Haney's hands through the ball...??
Ever see mine?
Surely, my hand conditions through the ball qualify me to your way of thinking then those of those other guys....right?
birdie_man
New
Agreed 100%
Iowagolfpr
New
Brain, you hit the nail on the head again with your insights into Hogan's swing.
Tommy Bolt told me that Hogan had the strongest looking legs he had ever seen on a golfer.
Bolt also said the Hogan hands were very quick. Bolt said that pound for pound Ben Hogan was really long and that he had an extra gear. When I watch videos of Hogan I see a tremendous amout of athleticism.
Hogan also played with very stiff shafts. I think that if the average golfer tried to use Hogan's swing that they would hit it low right all day long.
Tommy Bolt told me that Hogan had the strongest looking legs he had ever seen on a golfer.
Bolt also said the Hogan hands were very quick. Bolt said that pound for pound Ben Hogan was really long and that he had an extra gear. When I watch videos of Hogan I see a tremendous amout of athleticism.
Hogan also played with very stiff shafts. I think that if the average golfer tried to use Hogan's swing that they would hit it low right all day long.
birdie_man
New
Is that what that AJ Boner (tee hee hee- I mean Bonar...*ahem*) guy teaches as his big secret in "The Truth About Golf."
The rotating of the forearms I mean.
The rotating of the forearms I mean.
David Alford
New
>Knowing how someone swings and what they do to achieve it has NOTHING to do with being able to "repeat it."
You've been gone for so long and the first couple posts i see of you are trying to stir the pot again.
why?>
Unless you are severely injured or quite old, there is no such thing as "try". Remember?
That's why...no excuses.
And that's why, Brian we have something in common. Namely a disdain for famous instructors who can't demonstrate a good golf swing. OK, it is hard to look good on video, so I'll say I do like your lag. Actually, your downswing has some similarities with Moe Norman's if you forget the one plane side show.
Regarding Ben Hogan, anyone who has talked to me in depth about the man knows the great respect I have for his accomplishments. But you guys ought to quit sucking up to his talent. Hogan disdained that, btw.
If you knew what he knew about the golf swing, maybe you would realize how far technique can elevate even an ordinary golfer. Hogan himself believed this...remember?
The "secret" in Brian's audio is right out of Life Magazine's 1953 article. It was simply the adjustments Hogan made to fade the ball. It
has little to do with the secrets of his golf swing. Hogan looked like Hogan whether he was fading the ball or drawing it. It's a peripheral issue, although not an unimportant one in shaping the shot.
You've been gone for so long and the first couple posts i see of you are trying to stir the pot again.
why?>
Unless you are severely injured or quite old, there is no such thing as "try". Remember?
That's why...no excuses.
And that's why, Brian we have something in common. Namely a disdain for famous instructors who can't demonstrate a good golf swing. OK, it is hard to look good on video, so I'll say I do like your lag. Actually, your downswing has some similarities with Moe Norman's if you forget the one plane side show.
Regarding Ben Hogan, anyone who has talked to me in depth about the man knows the great respect I have for his accomplishments. But you guys ought to quit sucking up to his talent. Hogan disdained that, btw.
If you knew what he knew about the golf swing, maybe you would realize how far technique can elevate even an ordinary golfer. Hogan himself believed this...remember?
The "secret" in Brian's audio is right out of Life Magazine's 1953 article. It was simply the adjustments Hogan made to fade the ball. It
has little to do with the secrets of his golf swing. Hogan looked like Hogan whether he was fading the ball or drawing it. It's a peripheral issue, although not an unimportant one in shaping the shot.
David Alford
New
Iowagolfpr, let me be more specific.
Even an athletic, tall, and lanky golfer looks like an uncoordinated midget with poor technique. Proper technique makes the arms look longer, the hands quicker, and the over all impression "tremendously athletic".
This is a fact.
Those who take the time to listen to theme I'm sounding will realize it's not about me, it's about YOU...
Even an athletic, tall, and lanky golfer looks like an uncoordinated midget with poor technique. Proper technique makes the arms look longer, the hands quicker, and the over all impression "tremendously athletic".
This is a fact.
Those who take the time to listen to theme I'm sounding will realize it's not about me, it's about YOU...
David Alford
New
...and your own potential. I just think the extreme hero worship ought to stop.
Yet, it permeates golf. E.g., the absurd acclaim for a pro's talent supposedly apparent as demonstrated by being able to bounce a golf ball off the face of a driver, 9 iron, or whatever X number of times.
The point is what? That these guys have it, but you don't? I don't buy it...entirely.
Yet, it permeates golf. E.g., the absurd acclaim for a pro's talent supposedly apparent as demonstrated by being able to bounce a golf ball off the face of a driver, 9 iron, or whatever X number of times.
The point is what? That these guys have it, but you don't? I don't buy it...entirely.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The hardest I laughed all morning.
No offense to you, David, though.
No offense to you, David, though.
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