I never understood clubs that have daily cart fees for members. How does that work out? I mean for a guy that plays 4 times a week, it can add up more than dues itself.
do you go around to the other courses much? or stick to your home 2?
How difficult are the courses you play?
- Thread starter jbrunk
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I never understood clubs that have daily cart fees for members. How does that work out? I mean for a guy that plays 4 times a week, it can add up more than dues itself.
do you go around to the other courses much? or stick to your home 2?
vjsinger
New
I know the old pro there. I used to gig with him on the side, good trombone player. I've played the South course 3 times..it's brutal, the greens run an average of 11 daily, for the U.S. Senior I was told they were 14. Don't get above the hole or you have a tough time 3 putting when they are running sort of fast. My buddy used to hold the course record until Allen Doyle came along for the Senior Open in 2005. I didn't get why people played golf then, but now I get it. He said Tom Watson is the nicest guy on the planet. I'm getting a stiffy...
Richie3Jack
New
You pay $150 a month. Then each time you go out, you pay $25 to play 18 (includes cart --- and in Northern GA you pretty have to walk anyway).
I play 3-4 times a week, so let's say I play 14 times a month. That would be $450 a month in greens fees. So now in the end I would pay $600 a month.
Not necessarily cheap, but not outrageous either. Especially considering I can play ANY of those courses for the same price. Which is HUGE because if the course has an outing or is aerating that day or I just want to play a new course for fun and to help with my game, I simply just go to another coure. I'm essentially a member at 23 clubs for less than $600 a month.
They also have an infinity membership where you never have to pay a greens fee and get unlimited golf. It's like $5K down and then $375 a month. Got a friend who has that and between him and his wife they were paying about $750-$850 a month on the regular plan. He said in one year under the infinity membership he had saved up enough money that it basically paid off the $5K he had to put down.
It's also beneficial to the company as they get a lot of members and a ton of play. Olde Atlanta Club last year got almost 55,000 paid rounds of golf.
It's one of the few, smart and unique business models in any facet of the game I've seen. Too bad nobody else has the idea to do the same thing.
3JACK
sounds like the infinity plan is the way to go, IF you get all 26 courses.
55,000 rounds a year makes my job very hard, without proper budjet. I am glad I am not at a club with that kind of play.
totally agree, it is a very smart model. Especially in the Atlanta market, where the competition is high for the golfer dollar. The company I work for has almost 40 golf course in 9 states, so kinda the same yet much more spread out. Though many of our courses have "sister" courses that lots of our members go play for $10 cart fee. Nice to see a company like canongate get and stick with a good model.
matt kluck
New
Oakmont Green Speeds
All I can tell you is the greens are very fast and severely undulated and the club does not post a stimpmeter readings.
MK
All I can tell you is the greens are very fast and severely undulated and the club does not post a stimpmeter readings.
MK
softconsult
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Needham says, "I never understood clubs that have daily cart fees for members. How does that work out? I mean for a guy that plays 4 times a week, it can add up more than dues itself."
In my view this is a puzzling statement for a guy that works for a golf course management company. Now perhaps, he is not is a position to see the P&L statement. I've been a member of 5 different clubs over the years and every one charged a cart fee for each round. At several of the clubs the Pro got a cut from the cart fees. In my last club as things got tight, they took that revenue away from the pro. It's a tricky battle between raising monthly dues and restaurant minimums versus charging for other things like carts and range balls.
Making money running a golf course, Public or Private, is tough. Think of how the P&L's compare for a course in Atlanta, with year round play, versus a course in Chicago, with play from say May through end of September.
In my view this is a puzzling statement for a guy that works for a golf course management company. Now perhaps, he is not is a position to see the P&L statement. I've been a member of 5 different clubs over the years and every one charged a cart fee for each round. At several of the clubs the Pro got a cut from the cart fees. In my last club as things got tight, they took that revenue away from the pro. It's a tricky battle between raising monthly dues and restaurant minimums versus charging for other things like carts and range balls.
Making money running a golf course, Public or Private, is tough. Think of how the P&L's compare for a course in Atlanta, with year round play, versus a course in Chicago, with play from say May through end of September.
softconsult
New
How tough are the courses I play? I couldn't tell you the lengths or the slopes of the courses I play. I mean, I could but there are too many of them.
I was in private clubs during my corporate nomad period from 1974 through 1995. With a couple of exceptions this meant that you had your regular foursome for Saturday and Sunday and maybe some customer golf during the week. Then I quit golf for 10 years when I went out on my own. Simply no time for golf and traveling all the time.
I now play in a Senior's Golf League. Sounds sort of hokey, but not really.
Amazing actually. It's been in existence for something like 25 years. They conduct 56 tournaments a year from end of March through end of October.
We play 20 different courses, mostly public, with 5 or 6 private clubs. It's flighted and the foursomes are paired by handicap so you are playing with
guys of roughly similar skills. First flight plays the white tees. Cost including cart is mostly around $30.00 up to the highest at $46.00. Prize money is in merchandise script redeemable at any of the pro shops during the year.
So how tough are they? This is just my opinion based on how tough they are for me. The private clubs kill a lot of the guys that are driving the ball 200 yards max. and hit a hybrid in from 160. The private clubs actually have rough that is tough to hit out of. I score better at the private clubs.
The tough courses are the public courses carved out of mountainous terrain with small greens and fall offs on every side of the green. Wide open fairways, but more than a few blind approach shots. Mountain golf with very few level lies and stupid tough contours on fairly fast greens. The private clubs are simply better designed and maintained.
I clearly remember moving here and struggling to adapt to golf in the mountains. Flat land golf is easier.
I was in private clubs during my corporate nomad period from 1974 through 1995. With a couple of exceptions this meant that you had your regular foursome for Saturday and Sunday and maybe some customer golf during the week. Then I quit golf for 10 years when I went out on my own. Simply no time for golf and traveling all the time.
I now play in a Senior's Golf League. Sounds sort of hokey, but not really.
Amazing actually. It's been in existence for something like 25 years. They conduct 56 tournaments a year from end of March through end of October.
We play 20 different courses, mostly public, with 5 or 6 private clubs. It's flighted and the foursomes are paired by handicap so you are playing with
guys of roughly similar skills. First flight plays the white tees. Cost including cart is mostly around $30.00 up to the highest at $46.00. Prize money is in merchandise script redeemable at any of the pro shops during the year.
So how tough are they? This is just my opinion based on how tough they are for me. The private clubs kill a lot of the guys that are driving the ball 200 yards max. and hit a hybrid in from 160. The private clubs actually have rough that is tough to hit out of. I score better at the private clubs.
The tough courses are the public courses carved out of mountainous terrain with small greens and fall offs on every side of the green. Wide open fairways, but more than a few blind approach shots. Mountain golf with very few level lies and stupid tough contours on fairly fast greens. The private clubs are simply better designed and maintained.
I clearly remember moving here and struggling to adapt to golf in the mountains. Flat land golf is easier.
Richie3Jack
New
I actually added it wrong. If I were to play 14 rounds of golf a month, that would be $350 in greens/carts fees a month (not $450) and a total of $500 paid for golf a month (not $600).
That's $6,000 a year. Mind you though, in the winter months you're likely to play less because the winter weather isn't that good.
The infinity membership doesn't work for me because $5K down is too much and would take years to pay. But if you're a golfer who plays quite a bit and say your wife or child plays too (they are included in the monthly fee, but have to pay greens/carts fees every time they play) then the infinity membership is the way to go. It includes every course, just like the other memberships.
As softconsult mentioned, owning a course and making money off it is very difficult to do. One of my best friend's family owned and operated the course I grew up playing on and in the end they wound up having to sell it as they were going bankrupt after 40 years of ownership.
In fact, that's how the club I belong to got the business model. They basically bought out a bunch of 'distressed properties.' Most of these courses were private clubs (which was only about 10 years ago) and charged something like $20K for an initiation fee. The problem Atlanta had was just about every decent golf course was private and charging that amount of money. Eventually it was something where supply far outreached demand, the club went broke, then my club was smart enough to buy it out, make it affordable and come up with a unique business model that appealed to golfers and thus created their own demand.
The golf industry needs to do a better job of realizing that golf needs to be affordable and the elite, exclusitivity really doesn't work. It seems that golf club manufacturer's seem to 'get it' lately, but other than that most of the industry seems to keep running into the same wall and just blame the bad economy.
3JACK
I will tell you how. I recieve the P&Ls every month, so I know what is going on. The company I currently work for, does not charge cart fees per day.
We have 2 membership plans.
One plan is for golf only, ie walk as much as you want, OR pay for the cart.
The other plan, the "platinum" plan, your monthly dues included all golf, all cart, and all range fees. NO down payment.....no F&B min. We dont have many on the first plan
the company owns 40 golf courses and is constantly building new ones. I do not want to be rude, but instead of thinking you know something, you might want to ask WHY I think that. Cause there are many differences between management company life and the blue blood country club. so ask any questions you would like, seen a lot in my time, and love to talk about it.
Cant believe how much your guys have to pay for membership. I pay £630 (approx $1000) a year for unlimited golf and thats a pretty typical price over here.
My course is only 6300 yards but nobody tears it up even pros. Course record is 65 and the elements are its defence along with some tough greens. A 20mph wind is a light breeze for us.
The Mendip Golf Club
My course is only 6300 yards but nobody tears it up even pros. Course record is 65 and the elements are its defence along with some tough greens. A 20mph wind is a light breeze for us.
The Mendip Golf Club
well see they did that back in the 90's and early 2000s when everyone that had a trust fund was building a new course. And now it has come back to bite them.
In 2000-2001 it wasnt so bad cause tiger was tearing up the TOUR and EVERYONE wanted to play golf, rounds were up and the cash box was filling up. Then all the new players quit playing and you basic supply and demand. you had 100 courses competeing for 20 players........and even warren buffet himself cant make money on those numbers.
I can post a lot more, but tired of typing for the moment. The private clubs hurt themselves, and the semi-private clubs ....have to explain later
softconsult
New
Needham, no offense was meant. It, frankly, amazes me how thin skinned some people are. I suppose you somehow felt slighted by me questioning whether you were privy to the P&L, but how would we know that you actually see the P&L. You then go on to say, "I do not want to be rude, but instead of thinking you know something, you might want to ask WHY I think that." This is an example of your over reaction. Now think about it. All I really said was that many golf courses charge for cart fees. I think that is an undeniably true statement. It may not be true for your 40 course company.
You also refer to blueblood country clubs with some contempt. I assure you that perhaps the clubs I belonged to were locally held in high regard, they weren't blueblood clubs. I wish they had been, but no, they were just run of the mill clubs. Here is another fact. Since the 1986 tax law change, private country clubs have been struggling. All of the private clubs in my area are hurting as members examine the annual cost and opt out. The ones that are doing well are the very high cotton clubs where money is essentially a non-issue.
So you said you liked talking about this subject. I would be curious to know what the typical annual Platinum membership costs. Are these courses semi-private? What is the typical number of members? Are they typically located in larger metropolitan areas? What is the typical number of rounds per year?
Just interested.
You also refer to blueblood country clubs with some contempt. I assure you that perhaps the clubs I belonged to were locally held in high regard, they weren't blueblood clubs. I wish they had been, but no, they were just run of the mill clubs. Here is another fact. Since the 1986 tax law change, private country clubs have been struggling. All of the private clubs in my area are hurting as members examine the annual cost and opt out. The ones that are doing well are the very high cotton clubs where money is essentially a non-issue.
So you said you liked talking about this subject. I would be curious to know what the typical annual Platinum membership costs. Are these courses semi-private? What is the typical number of members? Are they typically located in larger metropolitan areas? What is the typical number of rounds per year?
Just interested.
The place I play has 2 18-hole courses. The courses are not that hard. They do have real rough and can play 7,150 from the tips, but I play from the blue tees that make it roughly 6,800 (the effective length is longer as there is very little roll in fairways except in winter). Course ratings are 75 and slopes are at 132. The funny thing is every member considers one course much harder than the other (3 shots?) and yet the ratings and slopes are identical.
Sure Steve, and sorry if I acted brash to you. I deal with mis-conceptions everyday, that get blown up into an angry mob. I should have asked where you were coming from, instead of assuming myself.
P&Ls some months I wished I did not see them. but at the calender year end, my bonus is determined by my P&L. So I have to look at them for my own personal reasons LOL
The cart fees: I think the equity clubs out there mostly do, do this. Though at many equity clubs most members have there own golf carts and pay what is known as a yearly "trail fee". I am going to say from what I see and have seen, many of the management company courses do not charge a daily cart fee. Though this mainly depends on the market. Also, I have never seen a semi-private course charge a daily cart fee for members, at least not in market/courses I have work with.
Blueblood clubs Never liked working them. The old school bluebloods kinda screwed themselves in the last 10-15 years. You see the renovation market was hot. Clubs said- we want new greens and a new course. BUt my daddy and his daddy was a member here, and by god I am a member here. So what do they do? They borrow 3 million from the bank cause "moneys cheap" and put 2.8 mil in the clubhouse renavation and a few hundo in the golf course to band aid some things that make their greens die every year and maybe a few new irrigation heads
well fast forward to a shitty economy and while "the white shirts" are enjoying thier mint julips on the back porch of the new clubhouse, 1/2 the membership left, the club now has to borrow more money and assess members just to make the interest payment , and GREENS ARE STILL DEAD.
(white shirts= the group of old men that hang out and play tonk,spades, and ginrummy in the grill all day in starched white shirts. every club has them. sometimes refered to as the "old 96ers. and normally consist of a few board members.)
the company I work for
Lindsey Management.
All of our courses are surrounded by apartments and/or houses.
The club I am at, we have around 300 members.
normal membership $110,
PLATINUM=$170. This is my club, others in the company have 550 members, and platinum is $230 I beleive. Cost of membership varies by market. Average is $200 month platinum. I know of other properties in the company that have close to 700 members, or did at one time. My company believes strongly in making golf affordable, while providing a nice product.
18 hole properties are private, though My property(18 hole) is right off a major interstate highway so if travelers come in, we dont turn down the $45 a loop.
the 9 hole properties are semi-private. In fact with paid rent in the apartments you also get free golf, not cart though. 9 holes courses have membership plans that are $100 month all golf/all carts incuded. Most 9 holers do not have driving ranges, though some of the newer ones do
rounds it varies my course does around 20-25k rounds per year, other courses do 55k rounds per year. there are some 9 hole properties that may not turn 5k rounds a year.
Markets we have golf courses in the KC, Little Rock, Memphis, Tulsa, OK CITY, Witchita, lincon, NE those are the major metro areas. We have many of our properties in college towns, mostly SEC some Big 12 I know we building more in the SEC at this time. We had some in the dallas market but sold them when the property tax law changed about 3 years ago. I wish they would move into the atlanta/athens market......I have always wanted to live there.
If there is anything else please ask, as you can tell I do like to talk about it
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My course in south Wales was £480 a year, and I have had a hard time adjusting to the exorbitant costs and 5 hour rounds back in the States.
And yes, I agree, there isn't any wind to speak of until you are 25mph and above!
I have been at my club for nearly 4 years now and in that time I can only recall 1 day with no wind at all. 30mph+ are a regular occurence. I wouldnt change it though as makes you a better player
A 4 hour round is slow for us. I dont know how you guys over there can afford it. I do think though that your courses are better manicured than ours and perhaps explains the extra cost
ggsjpc
New
Oakmont...Please, if they built it today it would be laughing stock
I've played Oakmont. My first experience on the grounds happened when I walked onto the practice putting green(shares duties with the 9th). I dropped three balls down and turned my head to talk to friend of mine and by the time I turned back around, my golf balls were 20 feet away.
Talk about severe. I've also never played a course with so many flagpoles on the course so you know where the green is. 3 of the first 4 holes you're hitting blind to the green. Granted this was all before the tree removal but like I said in the opening, if it were built today, it would not be a course anyone would think is a classic.
I'm sure this will ruffle a few feathers but until you experience it, you can't truly "appreciate" it.
BTW-Some of the best holes are at the end. Great finish 16, 17 and 18.
I've played Oakmont. My first experience on the grounds happened when I walked onto the practice putting green(shares duties with the 9th). I dropped three balls down and turned my head to talk to friend of mine and by the time I turned back around, my golf balls were 20 feet away.
Talk about severe. I've also never played a course with so many flagpoles on the course so you know where the green is. 3 of the first 4 holes you're hitting blind to the green. Granted this was all before the tree removal but like I said in the opening, if it were built today, it would not be a course anyone would think is a classic.
I'm sure this will ruffle a few feathers but until you experience it, you can't truly "appreciate" it.
BTW-Some of the best holes are at the end. Great finish 16, 17 and 18.
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mgranato
New
Home course is 7100 yards (74.5/139). Away course (visits to wife's peeps) is 8,100 yards (78.7/138).
GGSJPC-
how would it be a laughing stock? b/c it has blind shots?
taking out the 800 trees several years ago was the best thing ever and from all intents and purposes it returned it to the "classic" theme and design.
I am not doubting it may have some "quirky" holes and blind shots, but I can't think of many courses build lately I have seen and thought "classic".
never stepped a foot on Oakmont so I ask you to please clarify your opinion, for my own understanding.
how would it be a laughing stock? b/c it has blind shots?
taking out the 800 trees several years ago was the best thing ever and from all intents and purposes it returned it to the "classic" theme and design.
I am not doubting it may have some "quirky" holes and blind shots, but I can't think of many courses build lately I have seen and thought "classic".
never stepped a foot on Oakmont so I ask you to please clarify your opinion, for my own understanding.
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