How do you chose your preferred components?

[golfbulldog]

Homer rarely tells us exactly what to do but he does tell us some "correct" or "preferred" alignments eg. wrist position </u>( right = bent/level/vertical - mid body swinger - left = flat level vertical) - key alignment being level- AND his preference for zero plane shift </u>(plane shifts are hazardous) and/or turned shoulder plane</u>. Whether you adopt these he leaves to a matter of personal preference but it seems foolish to avoid advice at least until it has been tried out. Presumably helped, if possible , by an AI who can work out compatible components.

Brian, How do you chose those components? I know you see this as "the art" but it can only be through visual analysis that occurs at an unconscious level that makes you "see" what works. But what are you really "seeing"?

My thoughts are that some components are dictated to the individual through anatomy. For example plane and plane shift.

Using level wrist alignment,standard grip, a golf shaft of correct length ( for numbered iron) and correct posture the golfer can only align the shaft on one plane. Now if you set up an inclined plane board ( as in TGM book) to this angle of shaft plane, drop the shaft and make a backswing pivot - now where does your trail shoulder lie in relation to the inclined plane?

If the inclined plane cuts through the trail shoulder you can use TSP and zero axis shift, if shoulder lies above plane then you must use single shift backswing to get to TSP , otherwise your zero plane shift swing will be on hands only plane . Not ideal for full swing?

"Let your anatomy dictate the components" - Does anybody agree ? comments please. I have recently taken Homer's advice and built an inclined plane!!

 

[birdie_man]

Ya I think there's times when things just "feel right" and just happen to work.....whether it be because of the way the body is built or just from some kind of personal preference....i.e. who knows why but that's what works for me.

I put my r. forearm on plane with putts and chips.....but not so much with anthing else. There's anatomical and mechanical reasons I guess.

I also like a Double Shift....who knows exactly why......I do think it's kinda what the club the club wants to do though....or what gravity (backswing) and physics want the club to do. Feels like I have to do too much of a lift with my own effort to go straight up the TSP. And as for the TSP on the way down, I just have never done that....can't get comfortable swinging "that far left."

It's just not me.

May not be ideal when you draw the lines and really ananyze it from a "geomatrical simplicity" POV.....but w/e I don't care. Works fine and I understand it anyway. It has advantages I think.

...

I think that being geometrically "ideal" is not always the best way to go....

You have to take into account many other things:

-tendencies- what you do naturally and naturally best, what feels right, etc.

-anatomy- relating to the body- being in balance, taking into account how a person is built (somewhat), etc....anatomy.....what feels normal and is "normal" naturally, with relation to how the body is built and not neccessarily in relation to planes, etc. etc. etc.....other "ideal" reference points.

-desired ball flight

-what physics wants to do with the club

-flat-out: what works

etc...

...

Things can get pretty complicated if you look into it....and individual differences...the why's.

 

[golfbulldog]

Birdie man,

When you say "what you do naturally and naturally best, what feels right..." aren't you saying what you have done for a long time , possibly after lessons / reading from less than perfect mechanics / geometry?

Golf is not natural - read Hogan's power golf bit about doing everything that is not natural and you will have a pretty perfect swing!

I believe that an experienced golfer's natural is just "old bad, comfortable habits". Yes , you can chose components to fit with those habits and make a more mechanically complicated swing which achieves desired impact alignments OR start getting rid of old bad habits!

A winning tour pro like Furyk probably doesn't want to start getting rid of his "natural" habits but almost every one else, given that they have time, would be better off with a mechanically simpler geometric swing - No?

It interests me why people seem to gravitate toward certain patterns - can it be predicted through measurement? I believe that if a good teacher can fit components to one's swing then all they are doing is unconscious measurement. There is no mysterious "art" to it - just science that has yet to be made conscious.

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by golfbulldog

Birdie man,

When you say "what you do naturally and naturally best, what feels right..." aren't you saying what you have done for a long time , possibly after lessons / reading from less than perfect mechanics / geometry?

Golf is not natural - read Hogan's power golf bit about doing everything that is not natural and you will have a pretty perfect swing!

I believe that an experienced golfer's natural is just "old bad, comfortable habits". Yes, you can chose components to fit with those habits and make a more mechanically complicated swing which achieves desired impact alignments OR start getting rid of old bad habits!

A winning tour pro like Furyk probably doesn't want to start getting rid of his "natural" habits but almost every one else, given that they have time, would be better off with a mechanically simpler geometric swing - No?

It interests me why people seem to gravitate toward certain patterns - can it be predicted through measurement? I believe that if a good teacher can fit components to one's swing then all they are doing is unconscious measurement. There is no mysterious "art" to it - just science that has yet to be made conscious.

Well, you want to get rid of the junk....and improve stuff....as much as you can really.

But people do have natural tendencies....i.e. Hitter/Swinger.....i.e. Single/Standard Wrist Action....you know- the variations. Some people do certain ones naturally.....

....although really, you CAN learn anything you want (i.e. it IS possible).

BUT.....Ted Fort loves Hitting (for example).....that's prolly best for him (prolly)......he has a great stroke.....I could prolly do it with some practice.....but I wouldn't neccessarily be at my best, I don't think.

...

Really, it's all about producing the Imparatives repeatedly.....

Changing Components improves the efficiency of the swing and the quality/repeatetability of Impact to a degree, of course.

But look at Trevino.....how much better could he have hit it? I bet there are instructors that would love to pick out "faults"......but....look at Impact- time and time again he hits er perfect. Who knows.

The only thing I can think of is......I don't think he was really long......prolly could've got more speed and distance if he changed some things....but who knows....and- do you really want to screw with that? I dunno....

Same deal with Furyk and Kenny Perry, for example (although, Perry IS long).

It's a tough issue....I do think there's room for differences though....especially with "naturally developed" swings.....i.e. self-taught.

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by golfbulldog

Brian, How do you chose those components? I know you see this as "the art" but it can only be through visual analysis that occurs at an unconscious level that makes you "see" what works. But what are you really "seeing"?

Brian knows the book but he has uncanny golf intuition. It is that uncanny intuition and experience that will differentiate someone that knows the book and one that is a great coach. He had a look at a good friend of mine's swing. He has been a PGA pro for 10 years. He had a double shift that he had been taught along with a bunch of other moves that he had been taught. He could play off +3 with what he was doing and was no slouch. Brian had a look at a few of his swings and said something like " He has been taught to swing that way . He has a bunch of moves that are in there that are not right for him". Every point that Brian picked up on was right. Under Brian's guidance he is now single shifting and took to it like a duck to water. The changes were rapid and the improvement in his swing and ball striking has been amazing. Friends and other players have commented on it. There has to be a certain amount of logic in determining which TGM pattern is right for someone. Massive knowledge is a must but the great coaches have this golf intuition that guides them. It is a gift that is honed through experience and study.

 

[golfbulldog]

This is exactly what I mean - you call it Brian's "intuition" , ie. some unconscious / semiconscious brain processing , but I want to know exactly why Brian came to his conclusions - trying to dissect objectivity out of the art.

There are only visual and memory clues to go on for the brain to come up with that feeling that a double shift is not as good as a single shift for a player. Often, in fact most, processing of data which leads us to intuitive decisions is done at an unconscious level. Maybe Brian , unless he really sat down and thought about it, does not know exactly why he felt that single shift was better BUT his brain is so good at memory and visual analysis that it does it automatically !!

In medicine, one can look at a certain type of skin rash and say " it's obviously xxxxx" and it is only when a student asks " why is it not YYYYYY, it look pretty similar to me" and you sometimes end up saying "well it just looks like XXXXX". What i am really saying is that if I sat down and thought consciously i would articulate the exact descriptive features that led to my diagnosis - instead i relied on a well programmed visual brain and pattern recognition. Superficially I could call it a hunch, intuition, the art of medicine - none of which really exist IMO as a special force or skill , all are based on previous memory or knowledge.

dissect the unconscious part of Brian's brain and the sequel to TGM is in there!!

 

[cdog]

"Let your anatomy dictate the components"...........I agree complelely, as long as it's done with the imperatives in mind.

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by hue
"He has been taught to swing that way. He has a bunch of moves that are in there that are not right for him". Every point that Brian picked up on was right. Under Brian's guidance he is now single shifting and took to it like a duck to water. The changes were rapid and the improvement in his swing and ball striking has been amazing. Friends and other players have commented on it.

Brian...

This is interesting.

How exactly could you tell this guy would be better off with a Single Shift?

I don't get it but this is cool.