How good of a teacher was Homer Kelley?

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
How good of a teacher was Homer Kelley?

Before anyone gets nervous, re-read the above line.

Notice, I am not asking how smart he was, how good his book is, or how great a man he may have been.

Just the "teacher" part, ma'am.

And by TEACHER, I mean, Golf Instructor. At a driving range. With some people coming to see him, but some are coming just because they live around the block.

With some who want just one lesson, or just want their slice fixed, or a Tour player who doesn't want ANY terminology.

In other words, what I have been doing for the last 24 years. Teaching golf.

I have my thoery and others will have theirs.

But remember folks, since Homer never really was an "on the line" teacher, we will never know.

I'm just asking, and for the moment, just listening.;)
 
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shootin4par

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

How good of a teacher was Homer Kelley?

Before anyone gets nervous, re-read the above line.

Notice, I am not asking how smart he was, how good his book is, or how great a man he may have been.

Just the "teacher" part, ma'am.

And by TEACHER, I mean, Golf Instructor. At a driving range. With some people coming to see him, but some are coming just because they live around the block.

With some who want just one lesson, or just want their slice fixed, or a Tour player who doesn't want ANY terminology.

In other words, what I have been doing for the last 24 years. Teaching golf.

I have my thoery and others will have theirs.

But remember folks, since Homer never really was an "on the line" teacher, we will never know.

I'm just asking, and for the moment, just listening.;)
Click to expand...

The stipulations you put on it are very unfair to Homer. You ask how good of a teacher he was and then you narrow it down to how good he was at instant communication. In my opinion, and I know very little about him, he was a great teacher. THe measure of a great teacher is how many people learn from that person and their knowledge. From what I hear you are a good teacher so every time you give a lesson, same thing for lynne blake, ben doyle, etc...) Homer is teaching as well.
 
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Martee

New
Interesting question.

From an outsider's observation it would appear that he had success in the fact he has had a number of students be successful in teaching and those students have also have had successful students.

I think if you view his work from 69 to 83 he definitely changed, grew and adjusted his thinking and I base this on the fact that he narrowed or provided some guidelines to teach by, two patterns (Drive Loading and Drag Loading) and the Basic Motion Curriculum. I see this an indication that he was a good as a teacher.

To be honest it is really hard to measure how 'good' a golf instructor is. You can say how successful he is by the number of students. Of course if there are repeat students one needs to wonder if this is because he good and they are moving to the next level or they are still trying to master what they went there for to start with. One about all the students, say for Ben Doyle who have visited him once and never returned? Does this mean the instruction was so good they didn't need to return or that the instruction wasn't that good?

How about pro's who can go through golf instructors/coaches as about as fast as they go through golf balls at times?

Do you measure it by how many lessons the instructor gives in a period of time?

I think it is about impossible for a golf instructor to the golf instructor for everyone, kind of like one size fits all, never really does. But I think Homer thought it was possible and that is why he tried to arm the AIs with the knowledge to work on the 4 quadrillion plus swing methods/styles out there.

All that said, I have yet to come across an instructor that doesn't have thier pet method that given the opportunity they would apply that over something else. The good instructors to me put this aside and will try to Fix/Adjust what they are presented with. The others want to rebuild your swing along the lines of thier pet method.

Thus lies the strength of TGM for instructors, it should give them the insight to be complete, multiple dimensions.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
quote:Originally posted by shootin4par

quote:Originally posted by brianman

How good of a teacher was Homer Kelley?

Before anyone gets nervous, re-read the above line.

Notice, I am not asking how smart he was, how good his book is, or how great a man he may have been.

Just the "teacher" part, ma'am.

And by TEACHER, I mean, Golf Instructor. At a driving range. With some people coming to see him, but some are coming just because they live around the block.

With some who want just one lesson, or just want their slice fixed, or a Tour player who doesn't want ANY terminology.

In other words, what I have been doing for the last 24 years. Teaching golf.

I have my thoery and others will have theirs.

But remember folks, since Homer never really was an "on the line" teacher, we will never know.

I'm just asking, and for the moment, just listening.;)
Click to expand...

The stipulations you put on it are very unfair to Homer. You ask how good of a teacher he was and then you narrow it down to how good he was at instant communication. In my opinion, and I know very little about him, he was a great teacher. THe measure of a great teacher is how many people learn from that person and their knowledge. From what I hear you are a good teacher so every time you give a lesson, same thing for lynne blake, ben doyle, etc...) Homer is teaching as well.
Click to expand...

They may be unfair....but....

Homer had a LOT of OPINIONS as well as science, surely he tried them out, right?

Just asking...and listening....
 
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cdog

New
Impossible for ME to say, if he taught the way the book reads, he may have not been a good teacher to the majority.
A question would be what makes a good teacher? IMO, someone that teaches the cream of the crop of talent and has success maynot be a good teacher, a good teacher is the person that can take Mr/Ms Average, and make them a better. more consistant ball striker, then golfer.
 
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shootin4par

New
[/quote]They may be unfair....but....
Homer had a LOT of OPINIONS as well as science, surely he tried them out, right?
Just asking...and listening....
[/quote]
I get the feeling, and I might be wrong about that, that there is a direction this thread is meant to go. I stated my limited opinion because I am not really suited to answer any further. most all people here have studied him and his works much further then I have. Hopefully one day I will have the knowledge, untill then I realize my place on the tottem pole;)
 
tourdeep

tourdeep

New
"And by TEACHER, I mean, Golf Instructor. At a driving range. With some people coming to see him, but some are coming just because they live around the block."

never had him as a golf instructor, so dunno. This really limits the field...
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Senario: Homer teaching at City Park Driving Range, New Orleans(Brian's place) or Ivanhoe Municipal, Melbourne(where I teach)

I wonder how long it would of took Homer to work out that 90% of people are unteachable and destined to fail before they even start, and how long it would of took him to realise basic motion ciriculum as good as it is, would have lost him a lot of money as a teacher and had very few return lessons?
 
tourdeep

tourdeep

New
But remember folks, since Homer never really was an "on the line" teacher, we will never know. I'm just asking, and for the moment, just listening."

The internet has become a staple. It has revolutionized how we conduct business, many efficiencies involved, including that of golf instruction. I don't think HK could have ever imagined what the benefits of such a technology that this bought forth to the golfing community.

As a point, was there not dialogue of Hogan stating what video would have done for his golf swing?,,,taking it a strp further, streaming video for the masses from around the world to ctritique and/or to educate and have answers within minutes from some of the best,,,and worst...freakin' amazing if you ask me.


indeed, the internet provides a vast foundation and major opportunity for instructional promotion... and fantastic for the fanatic student...!
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Hogan DID comment on Video.

He said, "If I would have had THAT, I would have REALLy killed 'em."

As far as Homer...He DID do some teaching.
 
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Dr_J

New
My opinion, not knowing him personally, is that it seems if you went to him for an hour long lesson, you'd be hosed, but if you spent a week with the man, you'd be changed forever.
 
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mb6606

New
Homer stated if he had to do it all over again to learn three things.
Set your flying wedges
Swing up and down the turned shoulder plane
Learn to hinge
I believe he was a great teacher. Fortunately he devoted most of his time to research.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Some REALLY good posts...

My feeling is that Homer would have changed some of his ideas (not his science), if he had taught full-time for a while.

I also believe he would have LOVED instructors who "came up with stuff."

Homer did a LOT for golf, lets all start the new year with this 'resolution':

Get as many golfers as possible a pattern that gives them their best chance to produce the three imperatives and shoot lower scores.

Happy New Year!!
 
R

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by FOUR BARRELS AUSTRALIAN

Senario: Homer teaching at City Park Driving Range, New Orleans(Brian's place) or Ivanhoe Municipal, Melbourne(where I teach)

I wonder how long it would of took Homer to work out that 90% of people are unteachable and destined to fail before they even start,
Click to expand...

If 90% are unteachable and destined to fail, why not go sell cars or something?
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Its their thinking there is no logical train of thought or way that they can come back to their pattern when it all goes pear shaped.

We can all get them to do it when we coach them, but they lack the determination and discipline to stick it out. They cannot learn they are ADD and cant link learning golf to learning any other activity in life!

What student in any particular discipline has the right to dictate the cirriculum to the teacher as golfers do. Golf teaching is 90%entertainment to people and 10% can actually be educated in some way and own the skills they are taught for life.

Rundmc, you may think I am harsh with my views but I amm just telling it as it is I am trying to show these 90% that they may be able to learn something( although its a big job!).
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Hogan DID comment on Video.

He said, "If I would have had THAT, I would have REALLy killed 'em."
Click to expand...

What did he say Brian?

quote:
As far as Homer...He DID do some teaching.
Click to expand...

Clampett, right? What about hackers? i.e. Mr. and Mrs. HAVERSHAM.....
 
R

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by FOUR BARRELS AUSTRALIAN

they lack the determination and discipline to stick it out.

They cannot learn they are ADD and cant link learning golf to learning any other activity in life!

What student in any particular discipline has the right to dictate the cirriculum to the teacher as golfers do. Golf teaching is 90%entertainment to people and 10% can actually be educated in some way and own the skills they are taught for life.
Click to expand...

The first statement I can understand. If you don't have discipline and determination, you probably will not get it unless very physically gifted.

I'm at a loss that 90% of the people who are unable to learn golf are ADD? It is TRULY AMAZING the things that children are able to LEARN. A child isn't TAUGHT how to walk they LEARN. We all learn it. In my opinion GOD DIDN'T MAKE NO JUNK. The ability to LEARN is there. But if the INFORMATION is bad or the ENVIRONMENT is unconducive then learning probably will not take place.

So, are teaching golf and learning golf two distinct things? Have we f'd up the way golf is LEARNED? Ulitimately it is the "student" or player that writes the number down on the card . . .not the teacher. So responsibility rests firmly in the student's court.

Students of the game come to teachers with ambitious expectations. Seems to me that it is the teacher's job to manage these expectations. Don't let the student dictate the curriculum. If you want to get better you are going to have to do this . . . PERIOD. It is the students job to "absorb and apply" i.e. LEARN.

Homer Kelley has provided us with THE BEST information in my opinion. We can debate whether the head moves or whatever until the cows come home. But we have the 3 Imperatives, the Wedges, and Extensor Action and that will go A LONG WAY. So I think the next thing to figure out is how to UNLOCK the potential we have in our mind that we don't use in LEARNING.

By age 3 a kid has gone from a little helpless creature that pukes, slobbers and craps himself with his arms and legs flailing out of control to a little person that can walk, run, jump off furniture and speak a language. WE CAN LEARN. The next frontier is LEARNING how LEARNING TAKES PLACE . . .

There has to be a better way. People ain't broke. Golf is broke.
 
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