Hub Path question (re: Steven Nesbit paper)

[BertramSterling]

Can anyone help explain to me the following image, from the Steven Nesbit paper on hub path:

The initial move is far less ‘tangential’ than I expected - is this to prevent jacknifing of the club?

Also, I didn’t expect a much narrower path. Lets say you are the golfer above, with the ‘Actual’ hand path...how do you go about getting onto the ‘Optimized’ path? More of a weight shift toward the target?

The final part of the optimized path makes sense; moving upward at impact and bottoming out earlier. Also I understand that this is optimal for this particular golfer and not everyone.

 

[leon]

Curiosity got the better of me and I was amazed how much of Nesbit's stuff is freely available. The paper from whence this figure comes is here:

http://www.jssm.org/vol8/n2/11/v8n2-11pdf.pdf


Also, I was surprised that all skill levels showed such a similar pattern in tangential vs normal force through the downswing.

 

[Matt Bryda]

AS2 summed his stuff up well for me. A few nuggets there for the thick sculled type, me included.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Look at figure 3 btw its interesting:

 

[magicmarker]

Figure 2 is also interesting.
The better players have a larger radius at the top of the backswing while keeping the clubhead higher up and more tangential to the hand path.

In regards to the OP question, I believe it has to do with the fact that the optimized hub path that was produced was not allowed to require more work on the part of scratch golfer, rather only a different handpath that could produce the highest clubhead velocity. Optimizing in a way that more work will not be expected to be produced to yield better results.

 

[Brian Manzella]

hmmm....

 

[Richard the Nerd]

hmmm....

Brian...given that what you "feel" is basically after the action takes place....at which one of these dots do you reckon most cats should be "trying" to yank the grip off the shaft?

 

[gmbtempe]

So looking at the graphs the scratch player is far from the optimized hub path? The 5 handicap would have appeared to be the closest?

 

[wulsy]

Maybe he was a good putter.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I changed the picture and color coded the dots.

The big "normal" should be by the yellowish dots.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Figure 2 is also interesting.
The better players have a larger radius at the top of the backswing while keeping the clubhead higher up and more tangential to the hand path.

In regards to the OP question, I believe it has to do with the fact that the optimized hub path that was produced was not allowed to require more work on the part of scratch golfer, rather only a different handpath that could produce the highest clubhead velocity. Optimizing in a way that more work will not be expected to be produced to yield better results.

Very good Magic.

"The golfer is ALWAYS applying a force inside the hand path in order to direct it and power it." —Steven Nesbit

 

[BertramSterling]

Figure 2 is also interesting.
The better players have a larger radius at the top of the backswing while keeping the clubhead higher up and more tangential to the hand path.

In regards to the OP question, I believe it has to do with the fact that the optimized hub path that was produced was not allowed to require more work on the part of scratch golfer, rather only a different handpath that could produce the highest clubhead velocity. Optimizing in a way that more work will not be expected to be produced to yield better results.

That's why I was looking at this figure specifically, and trying to understand it. The hub path generated is said to require less work for a higher club head speed (looks like 11% less work for 4% more speed).

I would think the implication of this would be that the golfer can physically do 11% more work - as in the first swing. So, at the least, the optimized swing is 4% faster and easier on the body. Is it possible that an even greater swing speed would be possible performing the optimized hub path using some of this extra work?

I'll note that the force in the original swing is very similar to the force in the optimized swing, so I concede it to more knowledgeable folk here to determine if this is actually more of a factor (total power, total work and swing torque are down 16.2%, 11% and 9.4% respectively)

 

[leon]

Just noticed that Table 2 shows almost identical grip velocity for all players. So much for body driven handle dragging, glad nobody teaches that anymore

 

[magicmarker]

Very good Magic.

"The golfer is ALWAYS applying a force inside the hand path in order to direct it and power it." —Steven Nesbit

Can you describe this force in more detail in terms of feel, and if and how it relates to preventing being underplane. I'm not sure I completely grasp what's being said by Nesbit here but I want to.

Matthew

 

[Brian Manzella]

Can you describe this force in more detail in terms of feel, and if and how it relates to preventing being underplane. I'm not sure I completely grasp what's being said by Nesbit here but I want to.

Matthew

Let's start here:

DO NOT TUG!!!

 

[magicmarker]

Do you think the club getting too deep and past parallel could lead to a tug/jacknifed transition or is a coincidence that the lower handicaps had the club getting more to 2 oclock vs 4 oclock. I don't know I'm just asking.