I wasn't going to do this, but it seems necessary...

[Ringer]

Ringer,

I am still waiting for you (or any other forum member) to post a video showing a professional golfer performing a tumble action in the mid-downswing.

A simple question. Most professional golfers, who do not employ a tumble action, get the clubshaft to be parallel to the ball-target line at the delivery position (3rd parallel).

Note that Anthony Kim's clubshaft is parallel to the base of the inclined plane (ball-target line) in image 5.

If he performed a tumble action in mid-downswing, how would he get the clubshaft to be parallel to the base of the inclined plane when he reaches the delivery position? Also, how would he keep the clubshaft on-plane (butt end of the club points at the ball-target line) during the tumble action?

Jeff.

I have already mentioned that the camera is not placed behind AK in his picture. The challenge is mostly that Jeff see's no tumble. I see tumble very late which gets his left elbow pointing slightly toward his ribcage.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Read more: Message Board - Squaring the clubface


I have already mentioned that the camera is not placed behind AK in his picture. The challenge is mostly that Jeff see's no tumble. I see tumble very late which gets his left elbow pointing slightly toward his ribcage. To me that indicates tumble but very late in the downswing.

Oh boy, I also wish you had not done this. I am going to get a long nights sleep cause this one could go for another 20k in hits. Can't wait to see the posts on this one.

 

[niblick1]

Would 1,000s of videos of Tiger Woods practicing his tumble move in super-slo-mo and then making this tumble move in his actual downswing swing in the past two years count as video of a pro golfer?

 

[greenfree]

Which Jeff?

 

[greenfree]

Oh! that Jeff. That's no surprise.

 

[niblick1]

Good point. Never mind.

 

[ej20]

Show Jeff Sergio's swing and be done with it.

 

[greenfree]

Show Jeff Sergio's swing and be done with it.

I think that's the swing Jeff uses the most to debunk the tumble action and other things Brian has talked about. There's no point, you might as well beat your head against a wall you'll get more out of it when you stop (the hurting part) because Jeff doesn't ever stop. Persistent he is.

 

[ej20]

I think that's the swing Jeff uses the most to debunk the tumble action and other things Brian has talked about. There's no point, you might as well beat your head against a wall you'll get more out of it when you stop (the hurting part) because Jeff doesn't ever stop. Persistent he is.

What is he blind?

Nobody tumbles more from halfway down than Sergio....ok,maybe Fowler does.

Anybody that lays the club off on the transition coming down needs to tumble into impact otherwise they would be so underplane it won't register on trackman.

 

[Ringer]

I have sort of narrowed down Brian's two concepts of the "Tumble" and "twist about itself" down to what the left arm does.

The Tumble is when the entire arm rotates from the shoulder socket down. The "twist about itself" is when just the forearm rotates from the elbow joint down. The right arm can influences the tumble and twist depending on if it punches or pitches.

A punch right elbow inclines to cause more tumble and a pitch right elbow inclines more of a twist. Admittedly this "theory" is in it's infant stages for me but it seems to flow nicely with what I witness in the real world.

As far as determining if someone is tumbling or twisting I look at the elbow of the left arm and the wrist of the left arm. If the elbow starts by pointing outward away from the player then moves to a position of pointing at the players rib cage then they have tumbled. If the left elbow is still pointing at the target and not the players rib cage but still manages to get the back of the left wrist facing the target, then they have twisted. There is of course usually a combination of the two.

 

[birly-shirly]

Ringer - I hear what you're saying, but I think it's potentially confusing when you say that you have "narrowed down" the concepts of tumble and twist to whole arm rotation and rotation below the elbow respectively.

If that's your view of the swing, then by all means stick to your guns. But I thought from your post on this thread (http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...-shaft-about-itself-now-manzella-video-2.html) that you were in disagreement about how the twist about the shaft happens.

Sorry if I have misinterpreted what you're trying to say. But on that other thread, I didn't think there was any suggestion (other than in your last post) that the twist was forearm rotation. Can you clarify what you're saying here?

 

[greenfree]

What is he blind?

Nobody tumbles more from halfway down than Sergio....ok,maybe Fowler does.

Anybody that lays the club off on the transition coming down needs to tumble into impact otherwise they would be so underplane it won't register on trackman.

What is he blind?


That's my guess.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer - I hear what you're saying, but I think it's potentially confusing when you say that you have "narrowed down" the concepts of tumble and twist to whole arm rotation and rotation below the elbow respectively.

If that's your view of the swing, then by all means stick to your guns. But I thought from your post on this thread (http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...-shaft-about-itself-now-manzella-video-2.html) that you were in disagreement about how the twist about the shaft happens.

Sorry if I have misinterpreted what you're trying to say. But on that other thread, I didn't think there was any suggestion (other than in your last post) that the twist was forearm rotation. Can you clarify what you're saying here?

I'll have to go back to read the thread but my only "difference" that I have with Brian regarding the twisting action is the role of the wrist. I believe that the wrist only effects the alignment of the leading edge of the clubface during the swing, but with respect to impact it has no bearing on the open or closed clubface. I believe it can increase or decrease loft as well as change low point.. but with respect to the alignment of the clubface at impact, it makes not difference if your wrist is arched or cupped. None-the-less I still think it is preferable to have a flat or slightly arched left wrist to put low point ahead of the ball and to decrease the loft on the club slightly which helps many people with compression.

Let me restate though, wrist hinging DOES effect the clubface alignment during the backswing and downswing, but oddly when it comes to impact your swing has compensated for the location of the clubhead and thus actually does not induce an open or closed clubface.

The demonstration I give of this is in a video I produced recently. I try to avoid posting my videos here on Brian's site so as not to cause any conflicts, but if you want to see the video I can give you the link to the youtube page.

 

[birly-shirly]

Ringer - I get what you're saying, but I guess the question is whether you can look at impact in isolation.

I will watch your video, but I guess you don't think that an individual golfer is going to have a pretty consistent amount of left arm rotation say from the last parallel before impact to impact itself and that the amount of "twist" in the left wrist at the parallel position dictates clubface alignment at impact?

 

[Ringer]

Ringer - I get what you're saying, but I guess the question is whether you can look at impact in isolation.

I will watch your video, but I guess you don't think that an individual golfer is going to have a pretty consistent amount of left arm rotation say from the last parallel before impact to impact itself and that the amount of "twist" in the left wrist at the parallel position dictates clubface alignment at impact?

Yes.

There are two other "factors" involved that are how much your shoulders are turned at impact relative to the ball, and the strength of your grip but in general those two things do not change for the player from swing to swing. It's the amount of upper arm, and forearm rotation that opens and shuts the face. THAT is where most people are inconsistent and need to work on their face control.