I'd like some input on this....

[Ringer]

Running with Brian's tumble and twisting the club about itself I isolated these two actions to what the left arm is doing. (Magic of the left arm?)

I have an idea that sprung from all this contemplation and I wonder how it would hold up to some scrutiny.

It could best be summed up like this.

Where the left elbow points is where the path is going. Where the back of the left wrist is facing is where the clubface will be facing (for neutral grips). So to control path, point your elbow where you want the clubhead to travel. To control the face, turn your wrist with your forearm.

The right arm has a roll in this as well. The more the right elbow points to the right hip, the more inside to out the path is (and flatter). Wherever the face of the right wrist bone is facing (for neutral grips) is where the clubface will be facing.

I am not at all opposed to using the back of the left wrist and palm of the right for more clubface control including loft and low point.

 

[mjstrong]

Sorry, but I don't think the path correlation would be very strong. If the entire upper body is skewed open or closed, so would the path.

 

[Ringer]

Sorry, but I don't think the path correlation would be very strong. If the entire upper body is skewed open or closed, so would the path.

If the upper body is turned then the left elbow will also be turned though, would it not?

 

[dbl]

I can think of some cases where what you say about the left elbow and wrist is true, and some where it is not.

A person using a large amount of tumble may well have the elbow pointed inside towards the body at impact, and in that case diagnosing the path would not be possible from the elbow position.

 

[greenfree]

If the upper body is turned then the left elbow will also be turned though, would it not?

I think it could be or it could not be.

 

[Ringer]

I can think of some cases where what you say about the left elbow and wrist is true, and some where it is not.

A person using a large amount of tumble may well have the elbow pointed inside towards the body at impact, and in that case diagnosing the path would not be possible from the elbow position.

Can you give me an example of this? I'm not saying you're wrong and I don't know if I'm right, I would just like to see if some examples.

 

[dbl]

What do you mean by examples? Like photographs at impact?

Okay browsing some pics at redgoat's site, I found Els and Elkington to have left elbows turned more than most pros.

Els, photo 6 0r 7
Ernie Els - Redgoat's Galleries

Elkington, photo 3
Steve Elkington - Redgoat's Galleries


There's definitely pros who have their elbow facing the target and must be doing the wrist twist, so it was kind of hard to find these, and they may not be 100% examples of what I meant...but I think close.

Now the only hard part is guessing their path. Assume straight I guess.

 

[Ringer]

If possible I think video would be better than just impact. Obviously at impact the elbow can point down. I'm talking more about from the top all the way to the start of the release.

 

[birly-shirly]

Ringer - interesting ideas, but I have a couple of queries.

You already talked about the rotation of the whole left arm, as distinct from rotation of the forearm only. My feeling is that, for the elbow and the clubpath to be aligned, the upper left arm (shoulder to elbow) needs to be rotated about as far clockwise as it will go. Lee Westwood probably hits that position and so would Jose Maria Olazabal - but don't you think that lots of (good) players have their upper arm and elbow rotated anti-clockwise or left of the clubpath?

Also, given the amount of rotation available in the left forearm, won't the arc of the club tend to change its heading or direction faster than the elbow or upper arm rotates? If the 2 do happen to coincide at impact, is that a fundamental, or just a coincidence?

I think good players also vary widely in the alignment of their shoulders at impact. SnT prescribe a pretty square alignment, other rotational swingers are, what, 30*-40* open? How does this affect your thesis?

Lastly, a practical point. If you're right that the elbow does coincide with path in all cases - do you think that's actually a useful reference point? Do you think that players are going to readily relate to, and even manipulate, their elbow location and alignment better than other physical cues? I think a similar analysis could probably be made of racquet sport strokes - but I'm not so convinced that people would readily take on elbow alignment as their reference point.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer - interesting ideas, but I have a couple of queries.

You already talked about the rotation of the whole left arm, as distinct from rotation of the forearm only. My feeling is that, for the elbow and the clubpath to be aligned, the upper left arm (shoulder to elbow) needs to be rotated about as far clockwise as it will go. Lee Westwood probably hits that position and so would Jose Maria Olazabal - but don't you think that lots of (good) players have their upper arm and elbow rotated anti-clockwise or left of the clubpath?

Also, given the amount of rotation available in the left forearm, won't the arc of the club tend to change its heading or direction faster than the elbow or upper arm rotates? If the 2 do happen to coincide at impact, is that a fundamental, or just a coincidence?

I think good players also vary widely in the alignment of their shoulders at impact. SnT prescribe a pretty square alignment, other rotational swingers are, what, 30*-40* open? How does this affect your thesis?

Lastly, a practical point. If you're right that the elbow does coincide with path in all cases - do you think that's actually a useful reference point? Do you think that players are going to readily relate to, and even manipulate, their elbow location and alignment better than other physical cues? I think a similar analysis could probably be made of racquet sport strokes - but I'm not so convinced that people would readily take on elbow alignment as their reference point.

I think the more rotated clockwise the elbow is around the shoulder socket, the flatter the left arm wedge will obviously be. That flattening doesn't HAVE to result in an elbow plane but certainly would seem to cause the club to come from much further behind the player. That would flatten the plane and make the demand to rotate the left arm wedge much greater. Some people may see this as an added force to apply to the club in the forward swing. After-all it is another torque.

I would also say that Nicklaus has minimal clockwise rotation. Yet he was arguably the best player ever.

As for alignment, it really has nothing to do with where the resultant direction will be. If I aim 20 yards to the right and make a "neutral" swing, my elbow should travel in an inside-square-inside path that would make for a 20 yard path out to the right. If I keep my shoulders closed longer in the forward swing to try and create an inside to slightly out path I'll have my elbow pointing out to the right much longer as well.

It's more about the lever system. At some point if you are "pulling" with the left arm then you are going to pull around a fulcrum. The first joint along the radius is the left elbow and that first part of the lever really does determine the path that the whole swing will take. The only way you can really alter that is if you apply some force in a direction away from that system. Theoretically it could be with left forearm roll or right arm extension and roll but why would you WANT to throw the club off of it's plane?

Inherent of the statement above that does mean there will be occasions where it isn't the case and that would of course be something the instructor/player would need to be aware of. I would still contend that there is SOME pull to initiate the start of the forward swing and that pull would be predominantly of the lead arm. If there were a push to start the forward swing I would say there are some other issues that need a lot of work before path can even be of interest to the player. Making contact would be the top priority. Based on Dr. Zick's (and others) work a torque applied that soon to the shaft would create some serious timing issues.

Maybe it would be best to say that in GOOD swings, the left elbow predominantly leads in the directionality of the path.

 

[greenfree]

Maybe it would be best to say that in GOOD swings, the left elbow predominantly leads in the directionality of the path.
__________________


Is it the leader or follower, i mean something else causes the elbow to travel, no?

 

[dbl]

Ringer when I looked through a bunch of swing, I saw a lot of open shoulders at imapct, as Birly-Shirly mentioned.

Maybe you could boil your theory down for certain kinds of strokes.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer when I looked through a bunch of swing, I saw a lot of open shoulders at imapct, as Birly-Shirly mentioned.

Maybe you could boil your theory down for certain kinds of strokes.

Not a bad idea, but look BEFORE impact and the direction the elbow is traveling. At impact the arm must rotate to square the face (unless there is a strong enough left hand grip) I fully accept that. But taking the swing to the point of the delivery position, where is the elbow pointing at the delivery position? I'll bet that will be 99% to 100% accurate to the path the clubhead has traveled and will travel during release. By this time the plane is fully established, from the top of the backswing to the delivery position, this is really about the only part I think we can truly control the path. I don't know anyone who could at this point suddenly change the path the club is traveling.

Thank you everyone BTW. I really appreciate the input because it is helping me challenge the idea and refine it. It's something I've observed and would prefer to get accurate. I am fully willing to accept that I'm wrong but need some examples of it being wrong.

So here's the current refinement...

In good swings, the left elbow points in the direction of the path up to the delivery position. Then from delivery, through impact, and on to the follow through a combination of upper arm rotation and forarm rotation cause the clubface to close.

The roll of the right arm will be next after I refine this to where I think it's acceptable for usage. And yes, I do have the little yellow book at home that I will read as I contemplate some of this.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Ringer,

And yes, I do have the little yellow book at home that I will read as I contemplate some of this.

Are you an AI? If not, do you plan on going through the certification to become an AI?

Just curious.

Matt

 

[greenfree]

I would like to hear Deadly's take on this, i think he would have some interesting comments on this. Mathew are you interested to comment?

I meant on Ringer"s idea, not the post about becoming an A.I.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer,



Are you an AI? If not, do you plan on going through the certification to become an AI?

Just curious.

Matt

Nope and nope.

 

[dbl]

I think rather than the elbow, you might just be wanting to look at the left arm flying wedge at the last point/ the delivery point. That would probably you give a good idea of the plane line.

However, I think I recall BM saying last minute path manipulation was possible. Possibly that would be using hips/body. But anyway for faders (and drawers) you need to accomodate the path being a few degree open or closed to the plane line. So how would that fit into your theory?

 

[Ringer]

I think rather than the elbow, you might just be wanting to look at the left arm flying wedge at the last point/ the delivery point. That would probably you give a good idea of the plane line.

However, I think I recall BM saying last minute path manipulation was possible. Possibly that would be using hips/body. But anyway for faders (and drawers) you need to accomodate the path being a few degree open or closed to the plane line. So how would that fit into your theory?

So swing your elbow to the left to make the path go left. Swing the path to the right to swing it out to the right.

If you open the shoulders won't you be pulling the left arm around?

I think it's just going to take more experimentation really. I think it's "possible" to move the arm in another direction than where the elbow points but good luck finding an example. I never got the chance to ask Dr. Neal about it and I wish I had.

 

[dbl]

I think you are right about those open shoulders. I just didn't note who the pros were.

 

[Ringer]

I used the concept today and it worked AMAZINGLY well. I mean results in 5 minutes and even better results in 15.

Guy came to me with this forward swing.

This is what it looked like 15 minutes after.

[img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_b79mbPjy-XM/TLpVOgN6GQI/AAAAAAAABOk/qr6fVUMS__4/s640/Eric-After.jpg

I told him to do two things to fix his path. Right shoulder down and left elbow points out to the right longer in the forward swing. After 5 minutes (I should mention he was an auditory/visual learner with a kinesthetic stress) he was pushing the ball right with barely an ounce of cut. So I taught him the forearm door knob twist and after an additional 10 minutes, he looked like the bottom swing. Sorry the ball is out of frame but clearly he is MUCH more improved on his path.