I'm a D-plane expert now

[SteveT]

Thanks to Jim Kobylinski and BrianM, and rereading Jorgensen's Physics of Golf, I declare myself a D-plane expert.. after only 16 hours and sleeping on what I read last night ..!!!

Did you know that there can be different D-plane physics for good golfers and poor recreational golfers?

Yup .. and it all goes into how they use their clubs. A good golfer will load their shafts properly while rec golfers cannot load their shafts efficiently because many use a too stiff shaft for their slow speed swing. If you can't "droop" flex your shaft tip, you can't get that final whipsnap through impact. Most rec golfers never experience such shaft loading and unloading ... and good golfers just take it for granted.

Inadequate rec golfers using stiff shafted clubs are not able to create that shaft droop that more closely aligns the clubhead mass axis with the shaft axis. This means the shaft static lie and dynamic lie are nearly similar. This also causes more stress on the top hand and instability that occurs through impact.

What does shaft loading do to the D-plane, you ask? Simply this: if you load your shaft properly, you will create a significant shaft 'droop' through impact. This means the eccentric clubhead torques the shaft tip so that the clubface goes toe-down at impact, thus reducing(flattening) the shaft lie ... the dynamic shaft lie, if you wish. The higher your clubhead speed, the more droop, unless you stiffen up your shaft tip to optimize. Your overall swing path and alignment of left arm to clubshaft through impact is another influential compensating factor.

Shaft tip droop is equivalent to a toe-open condition, and a right-side (for RH swing) tilted D-plane .... whereas a slow swing speed rec golfer has an on-line D-plane if they can deliver the clubhead on a proper straight path which most can't do consistently!!

Jorgensen, who introduced the D-plane, calls the direction of the clubface at impact the 'normal', and this plus the direction of the swing path and the ball aerodynamics defines the D-plane vectors.

So how do good golfers compensate for a right-sided D-plane? Well .. they can do several things ... assuming a stronger hand grip, opening up their stance or coming slightly over the top, or even moving the ball forward in their stance, like ball off the left heel for all clubs..!!!!

Chew on that and be kind to me ....

 

[savydan]

Hide the women and children - here comes Frankenzella!

 

[SteveT]

Hide the women and children - here comes Frankenzella!

LOL ... where is mandrin when you need him ...??!!!!

 

[dbl]

I think you are just saying that without proper toe droop, the normal to the face is pointed more left than desired...like when the ball is above one's feet.

 

[SteveT]

I think you are just saying that without proper toe droop, the normal to the face is pointed more left than desired...like when the ball is above one's feet.

"proper toe droop" is a dicey subject. I believe the True Temper ShaftLab gizmo provided great data on downswing shaft flex. Too bad TT discontinued it's use because the instruments in side the shaft were too fragile, and it broke down easily with use thus making it unusable in golf shops.

Nevertheless, the three distinct downswing shaft flex profiles explain a lot about how shafts are flexed. Has this ever been a topic on the forum?

 

[Ringer]

Steve, how does this shaft droop get effected when a shaft is spined? Also, is there a difference in droops with cavity backs vs. blades? Lastly, is there a big difference with driver droop vs. iron droop?

 

[SteveT]

Steve, how does this shaft droop get effected when a shaft is spined? Also, is there a difference in droops with cavity backs vs. blades? Lastly, is there a big difference with driver droop vs. iron droop?

Ringer ... intuitively, I just don't believe a 'spined' shaft is of any use for lower speed swings. At very high speeds, I can imagine that a spined shaft can influence the dynamic response of the shaft tip but I don't now if it's enough to disturb consistency. Spining and 'dynamic' swingweighting may only satisfy neurotic needs. As you can see, I'm somewhat of a cynic.

Cavity backs vs blades: There should be no difference provided that the vertical gravitational CofG axis are the same at the clubface. Simply, if the clubface 'sweet spot' are in the same location from the shaft axis, there should be no difference in the shaft tip droop, and assuming both have the same shafts and identical clubhead weights. If the cavity back clubhead length from heel to toe is much longer than a tighter blade, it's probable there will be more shaft tip droop. Understand that the eccentric clubhead exerts a 'centrifugal torque' downwards due to club speed which should max out going into impact.

Driver droop vs iron droop: Driver shaft tips droop a lot because the driver shafts tend to be more flexible than iron shafts. Also drivers achieve much higher speeds than do irons, so that extra speed will tend to pull the driver CofG more in line with the shaft axis causing the driver head to lead the shaft tip into impact. Alternatively, irons are heavier and are more eccentric to the shaft than are drivers. This will tend to impose greater centrifugal torque from iron clubheads and resultant droop.

Hope that helps. I believe you can find more detailed explanations of shaft tip droop on some golf shaft company websites.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer ... intuitively, I just don't believe a 'spined' shaft is of any use for lower speed swings. At very high speeds, I can imagine that a spined shaft can influence the dynamic response of the shaft tip but I don't now if it's enough to disturb consistency. Spining and 'dynamic' swingweighting may only satisfy neurotic needs. As you can see, I'm somewhat of a cynic.

Cavity backs vs blades: There should be no difference provided that the vertical gravitational CofG axis are the same at the clubface. Simply, if the clubface 'sweet spot' are in the same location from the shaft axis, there should be no difference in the shaft tip droop, and assuming both have the same shafts and identical clubhead weights. If the cavity back clubhead length from heel to toe is much longer than a tighter blade, it's probable there will be more shaft tip droop. Understand that the eccentric clubhead exerts a 'centrifugal torque' downwards due to club speed which should max out going into impact.

Driver droop vs iron droop: Driver shaft tips droop a lot because the driver shafts tend to be more flexible than iron shafts. Also drivers achieve much higher speeds than do irons, so that extra speed will tend to pull the driver CofG more in line with the shaft axis causing the driver head to lead the shaft tip into impact. Alternatively, irons are heavier and are more eccentric to the shaft than are drivers. This will tend to impose greater centrifugal torque from iron clubheads and resultant droop.

Hope that helps. I believe you can find more detailed explanations of shaft tip droop on some golf shaft company websites.

Thank you for the response.

 

[Matt Bryda]

SteveT,

A good golfer will load their shafts properly while rec golfers cannot load their shafts efficiently because many use a too stiff shaft for their slow speed swing. If you can't "droop" flex your shaft tip, you can't get that final whipsnap through impact. Most rec golfers never experience such shaft loading and unloading ... and good golfers just take it for granted.

I thought shaft loading as an additional speed/force factor was minimal compared to all the other speed/force generators in the swing?

Matt

 

[birly-shirly]

SteveT - I think I follow your reasoning, but I think your conclusions are that better players need to compensate for a more open clubface and that poorer players will have a squarer clubface.

The reasoning makes sense, but common sense and experience suggests that this factor doesn't weigh very heavily in practice.

Also, I'm sceptical that there is an amount of shaft droop that is a good thing in itself (as opposed to a symptom of other good things, like high clubhead speed). And I'm doubtful about the "final whipsnap through impact".

 

[SteveT]

SteveT,
I thought shaft loading as an additional speed/force factor was minimal compared to all the other speed/force generators in the swing? Matt

It's not a matter of 'speed/force', it's a matter of having a playable golf club. If the shaft tip didn't give with 'droop', you would experience a nasty kickback in your top left hand going through release and impact.

Just imagine what would happen if the shaft tip didn't yield and you tried to swing a club at high speed where the clubhead angle was just locked!!!

Most rec players with lower swing speed should be using a "L" flex shaft ... yes .. a Ladies shaft. I've tried whippy ladies clubs, and controlling the whipsnapping of the clubhead was quite a challenge... fun too.

 

[SteveT]

SteveT - I think I follow your reasoning, but I think your conclusions are that better players need to compensate for a more open clubface and that poorer players will have a squarer clubface.

The reasoning makes sense, but common sense and experience suggests that this factor doesn't weigh very heavily in practice.

Also, I'm sceptical that there is an amount of shaft droop that is a good thing in itself (as opposed to a symptom of other good things, like high clubhead speed). And I'm doubtful about the "final whipsnap through impact".

Yes, in practice poorer players have no consistency even if their clubface "normal" is aiming to the target on occasion.

Shaft droop is a necessary dynamic in a proper functioning club shaft and swing. What I mean by "final whipsnap through impact" is the dynamic response of the shaft tip as it flexes and torques back to normal. Shaft tips do strange things going through final release and even impact. Believe it.

 

[greenfree]

It's not a matter of 'speed/force', it's a matter of having a playable golf club. If the shaft tip didn't give with 'droop', you would experience a nasty kickback in your top left hand going through release and impact.

Just imagine what would happen if the shaft tip didn't yield and you tried to swing a club at high speed where the clubhead angle was just locked!!!

Most rec players with lower swing speed should be using a "L" flex shaft ... yes .. a Ladies shaft. I've tried whippy ladies clubs, and controlling the whipsnapping of the clubhead was quite a challenge... fun too.

There's a problem with the shaft designations of L flex and S Flex etc. it doesn't mean squat as different manufacturers of shafts have different cpm's compared to other makers one maker's Regflex is anothers Lflex and so on. you need to know the cpm's in comparison to other shafts of the same designation as well as the other shaft characteristics, factors including but not limited to bend profile etc.

 

[mjstrong]

SteveT,

Are you saying that better players (ie. load the shaft properly) will offset the "opening" effect of the shaft droop by the amount of lateral flex (sorry if that's not a correct term) of the shaft through impact?

Makes sense to me.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

There's a problem with the shaft designations of L flex and S Flex etc. it doesn't mean squat as different manufacturers of shafts have different cpm's compared to other makers one maker's Regflex is anothers Lflex and so on. you need to know the cpm's in comparison to other shafts of the same designation as well as the other shaft charteristics, factors including but not limited to bend profile etc.

Well this is true and not true, CPM's aren't always equal based on shaft design. One shaft that CPM's 265 might play softer/firmer than another 265 which is why we still need clubfitters.

 

[greenfree]

That's why i said this "as well as the other shaft characteristics". The main point been that( s flex or r flex etc.) are poor designations to base choice of shafts on, it's way to generic.

 

[SteveT]

SteveT,

Are you saying that better players (ie. load the shaft properly) will offset the "opening" effect of the shaft droop by the amount of lateral flex (sorry if that's not a correct term) of the shaft through impact?

Makes sense to me.

Ummmm .. "lateral flex" ... where does that come from???

Since there are so many variable, I just suggested a few compensations which might and might not apply to a specific golfer.

 

[SteveT]

JimK & greenfree ..... golf shafts are an extension of the golfer's body and unique golfswing mechanics. Everybody has a different 'feel' of the golf shaft.

When I tried a Ladies set of clubs I had to throttle back on my swing speed and I experienced an interesting and challenging feel of very flexible shaft. I assumed they were the equivalent of hickory shafts, and I recommend that you try them out just for the sensation. It takes some adjustment physically and mentally but you will gain a feel that is unique.

 

[greenfree]

JimK & greenfree ..... golf shafts are an extension of the golfer's body and unique golfswing mechanics. Everybody has a different 'feel' of the golf shaft.

When I tried a Ladies set of clubs I had to throttle back on my swing speed and I experiences an interesting and challenging feel of very flexible shaft. I assumed they were the equivalent of hickory shafts, and I recommend that you try them out just for the sensation. It takes some adjustment physically and mentally but you will gain a feel that is unique.

What sensation is that? I might like it too much, then what? abandon my clubs to the cold dark garage, i don't know if i could do that...lol.

 

[SteveT]

Okay!!! I admit it ... I felt giddy playing with those ladies clubs and thinking I was Bobby Jones high on hickory ... and yes ... some of the hits were downright ... orgasmic ... try it, you'll like it ... ladies flex clubs, an experience of a lifetime ...