I'm a D-plane expert now

[greenfree]

Okay!!! I admit it ... I felt giddy playing with those ladies clubs and thinking I was Bobby Jones high on hickory ... and yes ... some of the hits were downright ... orgasmic ... try it, you'll like it ... ladies flex clubs, an experience of a lifetime ...

Well since you put it like that how could one resist. I hope this isn't one of those scams you were talking about, promises great results , but disappoints...lol.

Okay enough of that, couldn't resist.

 

[mjstrong]

Ummmm .. "lateral flex" ... where does that come from???

Just made it up.

 

[birly-shirly]

Yes, in practice poorer players have no consistency even if their clubface "normal" is aiming to the target on occasion.

Shaft droop is a necessary dynamic in a proper functioning club shaft and swing. What I mean by "final whipsnap through impact" is the dynamic response of the shaft tip as it flexes and torques back to normal. Shaft tips do strange things going through final release and even impact. Believe it.

SteveT - is it true that poorer players have no consistency? Or perhaps that they consistently fail to square the club at impact, most consistently leaving it open and a smaller amount flipping it closed on occasion. Whatever it is, my main point was that the effect of drooping/non-drooping shafts as you describe it is completely negated by other more significant impact factors.

Re. shafts - I don't doubt that the shaft reacts to all of the forces applied to it during the swing. I'm just doubtful that the shaft reactions are important causes of anything good in the swing, rather than just the symptoms of an efficient and powerful swing.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but "final whipsnap through impact" sounds awfully like you believe that a shaft is storing and releasing energy in such a way that the "correct" flex shaft will give a player substantially higher clubhead speed at impact than a stiffer shaft. I'm doubtful of that.

Also, you said

If the shaft tip didn't give with 'droop', you would experience a nasty kickback in your top left hand going through release and impact.

Just imagine what would happen if the shaft tip didn't yield and you tried to swing a club at high speed where the clubhead angle was just locked!!!

Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying, but wouldn't a shaft's ability to absorb any shock at impact be maximised when the shaft is straight? A drooping shaft is under some strain and presumably is somewhat more resistant to further flexing. I agree that, all other things being equal, a stiff shaft will transmit impact shock more efficiently, or vividly, than a more flexible shaft - but I would see that as an inherent characteristic of the shaft, not whether or not the shaft droops at impact.

 

[SteveT]

SteveT-

Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying, but wouldn't a shaft's ability to absorb any shock at impact be maximised when the shaft is straight? A drooping shaft is under some strain and presumably is somewhat more resistant to further flexing. I agree that, all other things being equal, a stiff shaft will transmit impact shock more efficiently, or vividly, than a more flexible shaft - but I would see that as an inherent characteristic of the shaft, not whether or not the shaft droops at impact.

When the shaft tip droops or flexes down just before impact creates a scientific situation that says the clubhead essentially 'disconnects' from the rest of the shaft, and it's only the semi-isolated clubhead that hits the ball. IOW, the upper shaft and YOU! are disconnected from the clubhead going into and at Impact!!!

Can you appreciate that, and if you do, can you accept you can do nothing to the club that would affect the Impact event?? The 'shock' you feel is most likely due to an excessively stiff tipped shaft that does not droop enough because your swing speed is too low to droop the shaft tip.

Also can you appreciate that a shaft without droop would create an extremely stiff shaft tip and the eccentric clubhead would impose an extremely high 'centrifugal' torque going back to your hands just before Impact?? This will raise your wrists in final Release and cause you to have toe-hits, really bad!!!

The shock of ball-clubhead impact is absorbed into the flexing and torquing shaft tip. There is scientific testing that confirms this. If you don't match your swing speed AND downswing shaft loading to shaft flex, you will experience 'shock'. You should be using the softest shaft you can tolerate, and it's not always swing speed that dictates shaft flex. True Temper ShaftLab data and it's downswing shaft flex profile will determine your optimal shaft flex. Somebody with a smooth downswing shaft loading can be fitted with a softer shaft even if they have a high clubhead speed.

Unfortunately, most macho golfers think they need a "stiff" shaft because they are big hitters. Going to a softer shaft is considered weak, even impotent. Golfers who stubbornly stick to S300 shafts can be adversely affecting their golfswing consistency and even their swing mechanics. Soften your shafts ..!!!!

 

[natep]

When the shaft tip droops or flexes down just before impact creates a scientific situation that says the clubhead essentially 'disconnects' from the rest of the shaft, and it's only the semi-isolated clubhead that hits the ball. IOW, the upper shaft and YOU! are disconnected from the clubhead going into and at Impact!!!

Can you appreciate that, and if you do, can you accept you can do nothing to the club that would affect the Impact event?? The 'shock' you feel is most likely due to an excessively stiff tipped shaft that does not droop enough because your swing speed is too low to droop the shaft tip.

Also can you appreciate that a shaft without droop would create an extremely stiff shaft tip and the eccentric clubhead would impose an extremely high 'centrifugal' torque going back to your hands just before Impact?? This will raise your wrists in final Release and cause you to have toe-hits, really bad!!!

The shock of ball-clubhead impact is absorbed into the flexing and torquing shaft tip. There is scientific testing that confirms this. If you don't match your swing speed AND downswing shaft loading to shaft flex, you will experience 'shock'. You should be using the softest shaft you can tolerate, and it's not always swing speed that dictates shaft flex. True Temper ShaftLab data and it's downswing shaft flex profile will determine your optimal shaft flex. Somebody with a smooth downswing shaft loading can be fitted with a softer shaft even if they have a high clubhead speed.

Unfortunately, most macho golfers think they need a "stiff" shaft because they are big hitters. Going to a softer shaft is considered weak, even impotent. Golfers who stubbornly stick to S300 shafts can be adversely affecting their golfswing consistency and even their swing mechanics. Soften your shafts ..!!!!

I have found this to be true in my experience. I can carry the ball 290-300 when I catch it perfect and I've tried every kind of shaft from R to X. I dont hit the stiffer shafts appreciably farther and i have to "adapt" my release to accommodate them. I now play regular in all my woods because I prefer the feel.

 

[SteveT]

I have found this to be true in my experience. I can carry the ball 290-300 when I catch it perfect and I've tried every kind of shaft from R to X. I dont hit the stiffer shafts appreciably farther and i have to "adapt" my release to accommodate them. I now play regular in all my woods because I prefer the feel.

Now if you could explain what you "feel", that would be interesting. Can you share your "feel" feelings, or is it something that can't be easily put into words? Also, how do you 'adapt' your release?

I have difficulty explaining "feel" without falling back into scientific terminology, as you can imagine ...

 

[natep]

Now if you could explain what you "feel", that would be interesting. Can you share your "feel" feelings, or is it something that can't be easily put into words? Also, how do you 'adapt' your release?

I have difficulty explaining "feel" without falling back into scientific terminology, as you can imagine ...

I like to have a tension-free, free-wheeling release of the wrists through impact. I can do this with a regular shaft. The stiffer the shaft gets, the more I have to support the blow with the right hand to avoid the "shock". Instead of being limp through impact I feel like I have to muscle the ball with my right forearm with a stiff shaft. While I do hit slightly farther with the stiffer shafts on a good shot, I hit a lot of bad shots with this technique. So I prefer to be able to release the club naturally with gravity/centrifugal force rather than forcibly with the right hand.

I'm also left-handed but play right-handed so this might have something to do with it.

 

[SteveT]

I like to have a tension-free, free-wheeling release of the wrists through impact. I can do this with a regular shaft. The stiffer the shaft gets, the more I have to support the blow with the right hand to avoid the "shock". Instead of being limp through impact I feel like I have to muscle the ball with my right forearm with a stiff shaft. While I do hit slightly farther with the stiffer shafts on a good shot, I hit a lot of bad shots with this technique. So I prefer to be able to release the club naturally with gravity/centrifugal force rather than forcibly with the right hand.
I'm also left-handed but play right-handed so this might have something to do with it.

Very good explanation, natep .... and let me throw my 2¢ opinion by suggesting that the "shock" you experience is not entirely due to the stiff shaft but a consequence of an altered release mechanics.

Do you appreciate the outward 'centrifugal' torque applied by the eccentric clubhead 'drooping' the shaft tip .. and the clubhead CofG attempting to align itself with the shaft axis?

Assuming you do, a stiff tipped high kick point shaft will resist that eccentric torque and that will force the shaft handle and your hands upward, thus raising your wrists. The consequence of this is the clubhead will rotate toe down and cause impact to occur slightly closer to the toe. This off-sweet spot hit will generate a "shock" wave up the stiff shaft into your hands.

The drooping clubhead properly hit, will relieve you of 'shock'. Even if you hit off-center, you will get some cushioning using the softer shaft. The stress you anticipate/feel using a stiff shaft is your attempt to counteract the upward torque on the club handle prior to Impact ... right??.. wrong??

Doctors call it "referred" pain ...

 

[natep]

Yes!!!!

I was not aware of how this "non-drooping" affected the club, all I knew was that it impeded my slinging of the right arm through impact. Thanks for that explanation! Makes perfect sense! I would almost always miss-hit on the toe!

 

[SteveT]

Yes!!!!

I was not aware of how this "non-drooping" affected the club, all I knew was that it impeded my slinging of the right arm through impact. Thanks for that explanation! Makes perfect sense! I would almost always miss-hit on the toe!

Did you have an oval shaped impact markings starting on the sweet spot and moving up towards the toe?

Golf pros have that kind of marking on their clubfaces because they are always fighting off the upward stress of the club and if they miss-hit it's because of rising wrists. Add to that a late release because of high swing speeds and you have potential for gross error.

The difficulty with golf clubs is this stress is inherent in the design of clubs because of the eccentric nature of the clubheads ... and when your left hand pronates while freewheeling, it's vulnerable to those forces.

Only practice and familiarity with your swing and equipment will help you avoid that trap. Softest shafts will help ameliorate the inherent problem.

Ain't 'science' great ... simple too ..??!!!

 

[birly-shirly]

When the shaft tip droops or flexes down just before impact creates a scientific situation that says the clubhead essentially 'disconnects' from the rest of the shaft, and it's only the semi-isolated clubhead that hits the ball. IOW, the upper shaft and YOU! are disconnected from the clubhead going into and at Impact!!!

Can you appreciate that, and if you do, can you accept you can do nothing to the club that would affect the Impact event??

I've understood this to be the case for a long time. But I've never heard the assertion that this is dependent on shaft droop. You're not saying that by playing a heavily tipped S or X shaft we could be back in the world of the "heavy hit" are you?

The 'shock' you feel is most likely due to an excessively stiff tipped shaft that does not droop enough because your swing speed is too low to droop the shaft tip.

I'm having more trouble accepting this. I've got regular and stiff shafted irons that both sting on bad shots, and both feel great on good shots.

Also can you appreciate that a shaft without droop would create an extremely stiff shaft tip

Is this the right way round? I can imagine an extremely stiff shaft that doesn't droop. Not so sure of the causal relationship going the other way.

and the eccentric clubhead would impose an extremely high 'centrifugal' torque going back to your hands just before Impact?? This will raise your wrists in final Release and cause you to have toe-hits, really bad!!!

I'm not sure I'm following this. Surely a shaft, whatever the flex, simply stores and then releases whatever force is applied to it by the golfer. You get out in torque as much you put in. But marginally faster in the case of a stiffer or higher frequency shaft.

The shock of ball-clubhead impact is absorbed into the flexing and torquing shaft tip. There is scientific testing that confirms this.

I don't doubt this for a moment. I'm only sceptical of the idea that the same shaft will absorb more of the impact shock where the pre-impact forces have resulted in a greater amount of shaft droop or flex.

If you don't match your swing speed AND downswing shaft loading to shaft flex, you will experience 'shock'. You should be using the softest shaft you can tolerate, and it's not always swing speed that dictates shaft flex. True Temper ShaftLab data and it's downswing shaft flex profile will determine your optimal shaft flex. Somebody with a smooth downswing shaft loading can be fitted with a softer shaft even if they have a high clubhead speed.

I think this sounds reasonable as a rule of thumb. But you don't make any allowance for how a player wants to flight the ball, whether they play in high winds or need to make forced carries to tight pins?

Unfortunately, most macho golfers think they need a "stiff" shaft because they are big hitters. Going to a softer shaft is considered weak, even impotent. Golfers who stubbornly stick to S300 shafts can be adversely affecting their golfswing consistency and even their swing mechanics. Soften your shafts ..!!!!

Can't really argue with any of that. Except perhaps the last sentence....

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I think this sounds reasonable as a rule of thumb. But you don't make any allowance for how a player wants to flight the ball, whether they play in high winds or need to make forced carries to tight pins?

You should do this with shaft DESIGN and not flex imo.

 

[SteveT]

@ birly-shirly ... You've put a lot on the platter for me to address, and I will ... but first, may I ask to explain what you understand to be shaft tip "droop" ... what it looks like and why it happens. Nothing scientific, just your understanding in simple terms. Thanks.

I have been throwing this term around, and perhaps I've assumed too much and my explanation is not adequate after reading your comments. Maybe it's me and not you ...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Mark dis down!

The "disconnected" effect of the clubhead when the head is in "lead" mode (ahead of the grip-point) is a STRAIGHTER LINE through the ball, destroying any attempt to classify the swing based on a circular orbit of the clubhead and clubface!

And that's a fact jack.

 

[SteveT]

The "disconnected" effect of the clubhead when the head is in "lead" mode (ahead of the grip-point) is a STRAIGHTER LINE through the ball, destroying any attempt to classify the swing based on a circular orbit of the clubhead and clubface!

And that's a fact jack.

You got that right ... and just imagine how that alters the D-plane analysis when the droop disconnects the clubhead just before Impact ... and only God knows where the clubface 'normal' is pointing..!!!

 

[Brian Manzella]

You got that right ... and just imagine how that alters the D-plane analysis when the droop disconnects the clubhead just before Impact ... and only God knows where the clubface 'normal' is pointing..!!!

Well TrackMan does a great job with Clubface "normal."

I use it in every lesson.

PING uses it with EVERY SHOT PingMan 5 hits.

Guessing is for everyone else.

 

[SteveT]

TrackMan and all other launch monitors either sense or back-calculate their information.

With regard to the dynamic or effective loft of the club at the point of impact on the club face, it's "calculated relative to vertical" ... according to the TrackMan literature.

If dynamic loft is a back-calculated number then so is the normal to the clubface.

TrackMan is now the best launch monitor on the market, so it's data production is excellent.

 

[birly-shirly]

@ birly-shirly ... You've put a lot on the platter for me to address, and I will ... but first, may I ask to explain what you understand to be shaft tip "droop" ... what it looks like and why it happens. Nothing scientific, just your understanding in simple terms. Thanks.

I have been throwing this term around, and perhaps I've assumed too much and my explanation is not adequate after reading your comments. Maybe it's me and not you ...

I'm assuming that by shaft droop you mean the slight downward (ie lowering the toe of the clubhead) flexing of the shaft. I believe that the shaft also flexes forward (adding some loft). I imagine that the principal causes of this flexing are (a) the clubhead's CoG being offset from the shaft whilst being swung through an arc and (b) I expect there must be some reaction to the loading of the clubshaft earlier in the swing.

I wouldn't pretend to be able to understand, calculate or explain all the forces applied to the shaft or how it reacts in any more detail than this.

 

[birly-shirly]

The "disconnected" effect of the clubhead when the head is in "lead" mode (ahead of the grip-point) is a STRAIGHTER LINE through the ball, destroying any attempt to classify the swing based on a circular orbit of the clubhead and clubface!

And that's a fact jack.

Brian - is this what you were referring to, when you (at least I think it was you) said that the symposium had contradicted "the geometry of the circle"? Can you give an estimate of how far the "straighter line" departs from the assumed circular path?