In addition to NSA

[Ringer]

One of the major components to Never Slice Again is to prevent a cupping of the left wrist at the top of the backswing.

I have a theory that I would like to put to you GTE instructors. It is that the position of the left thumb (for right handers) plays a major part in whether or not someone is able to prevent the cupping of the left wrist.

If the left thumb is put on the club close to the knuckle of the index finger, it appears to be a virtual certainty that they will cup their wrist at the top. The reason for it is that it is the only way you can get the thumb under the shaft at the top.

So the solution is to have some seperation between the left thumb and index finger on the shaft. This allows for the thumb to be under the shaft at the top of the backswing, but still have a flat left wrist.

Your thoughts?

 

[jenhaoyen]

One of the major components to Never Slice Again is to prevent a cupping of the left wrist at the top of the backswing.

I have a theory that I would like to put to you GTE instructors. It is that the position of the left thumb (for right handers) plays a major part in whether or not someone is able to prevent the cupping of the left wrist.

If the left thumb is put on the club close to the knuckle of the index finger, it appears to be a virtual certainty that they will cup their wrist at the top. The reason for it is that it is the only way you can get the thumb under the shaft at the top.

So the solution is to have some seperation between the left thumb and index finger on the shaft. This allows for the thumb to be under the shaft at the top of the backswing, but still have a flat left wrist.

Your thoughts?

I have a slightly cupped wrist at the top, but my left thumb is put on the club far away from my index finger. When I put the thumb close to the knuckle it's hard for me to square the club face. But then again on the down swing my club comes in below the plane.

 

[Matt Bryda]

I don't think there is a correlation between a short left hand thumb and cupping the left wrist. You may be able to feel the shaft under the left thumb more with a longer left thumb though.

Matt

 

[dominicscaife]

Why did Hogan prefer the shorter left thumb?

 

[Jwat]

One of the major components to Never Slice Again is to prevent a cupping of the left wrist at the top of the backswing.

I have a theory that I would like to put to you GTE instructors. It is that the position of the left thumb (for right handers) plays a major part in whether or not someone is able to prevent the cupping of the left wrist.

If the left thumb is put on the club close to the knuckle of the index finger, it appears to be a virtual certainty that they will cup their wrist at the top. The reason for it is that it is the only way you can get the thumb under the shaft at the top.

So the solution is to have some seperation between the left thumb and index finger on the shaft. This allows for the thumb to be under the shaft at the top of the backswing, but still have a flat left wrist.

Your thoughts?

Ringer,

I would start my left thumb in a standard posistion, but as the backswing started I would unconsiously staighten an extend my thumb down the shaft which prevented me from hinging very much and gave me an extremely flat wrist.

Just had a lesson with Brian, moved my thumb closer to knuckle of the index finger almost off of club. Was then able to acheive a cupped wrist at the top. I am very unconventional so probably doesn't work for most but for me it did.

 

[Ringer]

I don't think there is a correlation between a short left hand thumb and cupping the left wrist. You may be able to feel the shaft under the left thumb more with a longer left thumb though.

Matt

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, I wasn't talking about a "short" left thumb. I am talking about the placement. Should there be a gap between the knuckle of your index finger and the thumb.

In order to achieve a flat left wrist I think there should.

If you put your thumb on top of the shaft, then raise the club up over your right shoulder with no right hand on the club, you will see that you are forced to cup your wrist to balance the club. You MUST cup your wrist to get your thumb under the shaft.

However if you put a slight gap between your thumb and index finger then take the club back over your right shoulder with no right hand on the club, you will be able to maintain a flat left wrist and still get your thumb under the shaft.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If you put your thumb on top of the shaft, then raise the club up over your right shoulder with no right hand on the club

we play golf with two hands so it doesnt matter. the wrist joint is independent of the thumb and you can make it flat or arch that wrist with any grip because of it.

 

[Ringer]

we play golf with two hands so it doesnt matter. the wrist joint is independent of the thumb and you can make it flat or arch that wrist with any grip because of it.

So toss out all things that improve your odds?

I dont know that I like the idea of the club being handled soley by my right hand at the top of the backswing.

 

[jenhaoyen]

So toss out all things that improve your odds?

I dont know that I like the idea of the club being handled soley by my right hand at the top of the backswing.

I'm not an expert but I think you use your pivot to assist both hands to swing the club...and not hands on its own

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

So toss out all things that improve your odds?

I dont know that I like the idea of the club being handled soley by my right hand at the top of the backswing.

what are you talking about? There are two hands on the club. They both play a role, either way i'm not going to go down this argument road.

The fact remains that you can have a flat/cupped/arched left wrist with all kinds of grips/thumb positions.

 

[mb6606]

The fact remains that you can have a flat/cupped/arched left wrist with all kinds of grips/thumb positions.

Dustin Johnson is a good example.

 

[Ringer]

what are you talking about? There are two hands on the club. They both play a role, either way i'm not going to go down this argument road.

The fact remains that you can have a flat/cupped/arched left wrist with all kinds of grips/thumb positions.

Wow.

"I'm right you're wrong, end of discussion."

Thanks for reminding me why I don't contribute here anymore.

 

[mjstrong]

I think Ringer was trying to theorize that there is an advantage to having both the thumb under the shaft at the top of swing, at the same time as having a flat wrist, and that the only way to achieve both (at the same time) is as he described.

I think it's an interesting proposition.

Personally, I have a grip with the thumb pretty close to the index finger, have a flat wrist at the top, but probably don't have my thumb underneath the shaft.

Ringer, what benefits are you suggesting with having the thumb underneath the shaft at the top of the swing? "Support" for the club?

 

[Damon Lucas]

I see what you are getting at, Ringer. The key factor in your mind is more the thumb under the club at the top combined with the left thumb placement at address rather than purely because of the address position.
So what Jim said is correct - the thumb placement has no effect on the wrist joint per se, but place it super close to the forefinger or have a weak grip, then ensure the thumb is under the grip at the top and you'll get your cup.
Try this though, super strong grip, left thumb as you suggested, and under the grip at the top - cupped or not?

 

[Ringer]

I think Ringer was trying to theorize that there is an advantage to having both the thumb under the shaft at the top of swing, at the same time as having a flat wrist, and that the only way to achieve both (at the same time) is as he described.

I think it's an interesting proposition.

Personally, I have a grip with the thumb pretty close to the index finger, have a flat wrist at the top, but probably don't have my thumb underneath the shaft.

Ringer, what benefits are you suggesting with having the thumb underneath the shaft at the top of the swing? "Support" for the club?

Well the whole things could hinge upon whether you want to swing or hit. By not having any left hand support on the club at the top of the swing it would place the entire downswing into the right hand.

Think about it, if the club has nothing under it from the left hand to help make it change direction, then you are relying soley on the right hand to make the transition from backswing to forward swing. For hitters that may be fine, but for swingers you've just killed any leverage the left arm has on the club.

I think instinctively SOME players (not all) will then cup their wrist in order to get the left thumb under the shaft at the top. If they want any left arm control then they must.

Also, I know from taking several self defense classes that if you want to escape an arm hold (where someone just grabs your wrist), all you have to do is pull your hand through where their fingertips are grabbing your arm. It is the weakest point of their grip.

Well think about the placement of the thumb on the left hand and how putting it close to the knuckle of your index finger leaves a big gap for the club to escape. Putting your thumb off slightly to the side closes this gap and ensures there is no way for the club to not have a pressure point on it.

Not only does this gap face down at the top of the backswing (allowing the club to escape our left hand grip) but also as the swing goes forward if you want a left wrist that faces the target at impact, what part of the left hand will be there to support the stress of the shaft? If there is no thumb BEHIND the shaft as the club goes through impact then you are once again relying soley on the right hand to apply force to the club. Again fine if you are stressing the 3rd accumulator, but terrible if you want the 1st accumulator to be applying force.

 

[Ringer]

I see what you are getting at, Ringer. The key factor in your mind is more the thumb under the club at the top combined with the left thumb placement at address rather than purely because of the address position.
So what Jim said is correct - the thumb placement has no effect on the wrist joint per se, but place it super close to the forefinger or have a weak grip, then ensure the thumb is under the grip at the top and you'll get your cup.
Try this though, super strong grip, left thumb as you suggested, and under the grip at the top - cupped or not?

Right. It has to do with where the thumb ends up at transition. In order to balance the club at the top of the backswing you need the pressure points of the last three or two fingers of the left hand on TOP of the shaft, and at least one pressure point somewhere along the shaft to act as the fulcrum UNDER it. If the left thumb is not the fulcrum that means that the right hand must do it, most likely the lower pad of your right index finger. The pressure point bearing the most weight will be the right hand pressure point and therefore it would be the one most influential in the transition as well as delivery to the ball.

Even with a super strong grip, the problem will be the same. You must still cup in order to get the thumb under the shaft UNLESS there is some separation between the thumb and knuckle of the index finger. Weak, neutral, or strong doesn't matter. Pressure points for leverage matter.

BTW, thank you for taking the time to think about it.

 

[holeout]

With all due respect, everyone who hits it with any authority uses both "swinging" and "hitting" elements. Lots of pull with the left arm, lots of force with the right arm.

I see your point about having some "support" with the left thumb on the backside of the shaft. It could actually help some people who use a lot of no. 3 (left arm roll) in their swing.

As far as helping with NSA, I'm still not so sure. Feeling like the left thumb is under the club, regardless of whether it's next to the left index finger or to the right, is not conducive to having a flatter left wrist. Encouraging feeling (note I said "feeling) like the thumb is on the side of the club would.

Just my thoughts. I like the way you're thinking though.

 

[Ringer]

Not trying to bring this thread back, but in a cruel twist of irony here is where someone first introduced me to the idea of moving the left thumb over.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...43-very-challenging-question-3.html#post89407

 

[holeout]

Not trying to bring this thread back, but in a cruel twist of irony here is where someone first introduced me to the idea of moving the left thumb over.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...43-very-challenging-question-3.html#post89407

Let's bring it back! I'm all for discussion. I think you have some very interesting ideas man.

With that thread wasn't the issue extensor action? I thought the issue here was twistaway and a flat left wrist at the top.

 

[Ringer]

Let's bring it back! I'm all for discussion. I think you have some very interesting ideas man.

With that thread wasn't the issue extensor action? I thought the issue here was twistaway and a flat left wrist at the top.

Heh, I am going back through some old threads here and reading some very interesting exchanges.

The Centrifugal force thread with Mandrin is a fun one to read.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/9031-question-mandrin.html