Interested in starting over

[golfman5900]

Hi guys,
Long story short, I wasted my entire season trying to get a whole bunch of shaft lean for reasons I didn't really understand. I managed to get a lot of shaft lean and at the same time destroy my golf game. I could hit shots low and left with steep contact and that was about it. I've turned back the dial on the shaft lean, and my swing is almost back to it's old ways (which weren't the greatest either). The problem is that I am (and have always been) a really poor ball striker. Fat shots, thin shots, heel, toe, I hit them all (and the middle of the face sometimes too).

I want to completely revamp my swing, because I think it's my bad pivot that is the cause of all my problems. I have an over active lower body with a big hip slide and I think it really kills my game.

My game in a nutshell:
Current index: 8.4
Lowest index: 4.6

Strengths:
-All shots inside of 30 yards. I'm actually a really good chipper/pitcher for short distances. I can flop, bounce and check, and bump and run like a scratch.
- Oddly enough, my driver, while far from great, rarely gets me into trouble.

Weaknesses:
-All shots outside of 30 yards.
- My biggest problem is that I don't hit greens. I might hit 5-6 in a round. My standard miss is left (pull draw or draw/hook). I can work the ball both ways.
- Too much spin on wedges.... I can't play Pro V1's because I'm likely to back them up about 20 feet on full wedges
- Oh yah....I probably putt like a 15 cap which doesn't help anything either. The strange thing is that I putt well on the practice green ( I only use one ball while practicing). I think I might just get worked up on the course.

I don't really enjoy working on my long game anymore, so I tend to dedicate most of my practice time to around the green....and it shows. I probably strike the ball like a 15+ cap, but I can scramble.

How do you start over? Is it possible? How do I fix my pivot? Where do I begin to retrain my brain? I bought building blocks, should I just follow it?

Here's a video showing where I am now with my swing:
Golf swing.wmv - YouTube

Thanks,
Golfman

 

[counterfall]

Golf,
I've replied to your swing posts before. Yes, the leg drive is excessive. My question is can you perform a full iron swing without trying to kill it? If you can set up without the excessive lead foot rotation toward the target, it may be a good place to start.
Could you post a 30 yard pitch shot at a target flag? I doubt that your pitch shot pivot looks a lot like your full iron swing if you are that good near the green. In other words, I would bet your lower body is much more stable or you would have the same spotty contact 30 yards and in as well. Building on your own good stuff from around the green and translating it into a progressively longer iron swing (8i, then 6i, etc.) may be a good way to go.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

I liked what counter suggested.

I believe that starting over is almost impossible without re-tooling your thought process. It is the way we think of a golf shot, golf swing and playing that creates our movements.

If you can change how you think of the golf movement then you have a chance. The one thing that has worked for me is to watch a tour player who's motion is as opposite from mine as possible, then try to mimic (exactly) until you can hit serviceable shots. For me that player is Trevino. By doing this you can detach yourself mentally from your current move by just being an actor playing a role. Use video, commit to it and exaggerate the movements.

 

[Brian Manzella]

WHOA!

How far right are you swinging????

 

[DCgolf]

What is your full swing miss? Starting over is a lot more involved than you might think and may not accomplish your goal of full swing improvement anyway. Following up on Lindsay's comment, you may wanna make that model David Duval. With the rolling head and all.

 

[nrggolf]

I could be wrong but I see a downswing that needs earlier clubface rotation back to the ball and more swing left without so much down.

 

[ej20]

golfman,the shape of your swing doesn't lend itself to consistent ballstriking.The first thing I look at is the swing shape.Yours is a flat takeaway going to across the line at the top,overly steep transition which then necessitates a huge reverse tumble.This all results in an underplane delivery which you try to fix by attempting to swing left just before impact.

The actual swing shape is hard to change due to your swing DNA but you can make everything a little more gentle.A little less flat takeaway.At the top is not too bad as your across the line is not severe.The biggest problem I see is the steep tug of the handle towards your feet on the transition.Way too steep and the resulting reverse tumble is severe as well.I personally don't believe in swinging left to fix an underplane issue.Fix the transition.Swinging left will not fix the steep transition.You may never lay it off like Hogan and I don't suggest you try but you can at least get the club pointing somewhere between your feet and the ball when your hands are back to shoulder height on the dsw and not at your feet(viewed from dtl).Then the reverse tumble will be a gentle one and your path will only be slightly out to the right which is perfectly playable.

 

[hp12c]

All things are possible, you stated you wanted more shaft lean and you got it, along with the ensuing issues you mentioned. Do u have a 3 wood?, the reason I ask is I also wanted a lot of shaft lean and in ruined my 3 woods and driver swing. The irons were similar to you and then the short wedges were starting to be a problem. I was using the irons swing, trying to take a divot, with a 3 wood and was horrible, bad contact bad ballflight. I had to change my swing, so I started working on not so steep on the downswing by swinging the 3 wood and swinging as full speed as possible, keeping the head in front of me on the takeaway no taking it to the inside, almost feels like its going outside the target line, brushing the grass no divot did it several times to get tthe feel. then I tee up a ball just above the grass take a a full swing with the 3 wood and just brush the grass, then drop a ball on the grass and od the same thing, let me tell you it took awhile but now less steep better swing all around. It seem to me my woods swing, shallow and small to no divot,works good on irons short or long, but my steep irons swing, deep divots with short irons and shallower divots with longer irons, didnt work with my woods.

 

[dbl]

At impact your right heel is lifted up like 6" or more..I suppose aiding you in getting left.

 

[earthshine2k]

If you don't mind me saying so; your pulls / pull draws are a by product of two things, mostly. The slide and the spine angle compression in the downswing to follow through. The path and plane look good enough, but sliding in front of the ball causes you to over accelerate the clubhead through impact. You're close to flipping it, because you have to to keep the ball from going off the map to the right. Compressing your spine angle compounds the problem, because, now, you don't have sufficient room to swing the club, so you have to try to hold your shaft angle / lean so the club won't bury into the ground. Trying not to chunk it while, at the same time, trying to save it from going right is a tough combination to work with. You have a very centered pivot, which isn't bad, unto itself, but it doesn't go well with the lateral slide in the downswing. If I worked with you, I'd have you feel like you loaded more weight into your right side at the top. If you were wearing a neck tie, I'd want it to hang over your right foot at the top of the swing. So, my suggestion, simply, would be to get behind the ball at the top, and stay behind it through impact. For you, the FEEL would be that of just standing on your right foot while you execute the swing. Trust me, you'll get back to your left side. NO WAY you'll hang back. And you'll start hitting nice, tight draws w/ out having to worry about snapping it left. The forward shaft lean you were looking for will still be there. You'll still compress the ball. You'll just be able to launch it higher and control the trajectory better by taming that slide. Staying back should help you stay a little taller in the early downswing. A little spine angle compression is ok. All the great ball strikers go down to the ball. But, for them, it's not so much of a knee collapse as it is an athletic squat / sit down move. In short, don't 'overhaul' your swing. It's not necessary. Give my thoughts a try, and let me know how it goes.

 

[golfman5900]

Hi guys,
I was out yesterday and got some more footage. There were a lot of potential ideas posted, so I stuck to just a few of them. I worked on 3 things.

1) In response to Brian's "How far right are you swinging" I tried to come over the top I didn't even come close, but it felt like it was OTT to me.
2) I squared up my front foot.
3) I made my backswing more upright.

I'm hitting 3 iron in the video. I find I can work on stuff easiest with it (easier to fade/hook and you know when you hit it bad). I was hitting about a 10-15 yard fade and the miss was a pull. The swing felt really weird, but I hit it ok. It was windy so I can't really say how far it was going at the time, but I hit a small bucket today and I would say about 200 yards. I usually hit my 3 hybrid 220 (which is why I only practice with long irons lol).

Here's the vid (regular speed swings at the end):
golf swing sept 6.wmv - YouTube

Let me know what you think,
Golfman

 

[ej20]

Hi guys,
I was out yesterday and got some more footage. There were a lot of potential ideas posted, so I stuck to just a few of them. I worked on 3 things.

1) In response to Brian's "How far right are you swinging" I tried to come over the top I didn't even come close, but it felt like it was OTT to me.
2) I squared up my front foot.
3) I made my backswing more upright.

I'm hitting 3 iron in the video. I find I can work on stuff easiest with it (easier to fade/hook and you know when you hit it bad). I was hitting about a 10-15 yard fade and the miss was a pull. The swing felt really weird, but I hit it ok. It was windy so I can't really say how far it was going at the time, but I hit a small bucket today and I would say about 200 yards. I usually hit my 3 hybrid 220 (which is why I only practice with long irons lol).

Here's the vid (regular speed swings at the end):
golf swing sept 6.wmv - YouTube

Let me know what you think,
Golfman

Swinging left or trying to come OTT doesn't really work effectively to fix an underplane issue.The proper fix is to fix the transition which you are still a little steep.The transition is where you are stressing the shaft at it's maximum and you don't really want to do that in the direction of your feet and then somehow having to shallow while releasing the club.Releasing the club is hard enough to perform with the uncocking of the wrists and rolling of the forearms without having to introduce a big reverse tumble plane shift on top of that.

Your swing shape is typical of the good amateur player who started OTT and then learnt to shallow by swinging out to right field(or the TGM method of hitting the inside quadrant of the ball) and then developed underplane problems.The fact is you still have an OTT transition which is where OTT originates.My opinion is that you should focus on this and the underplane delivery will take care of itself.Swinging left or right to fix path problems just doesn't work in the long term and are just bandaids.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

LOTS of people play from across the line though. What's the problem with that? I don't see being across the line as a fault, it's just one of many options. If you're across the line, your transition is gonna be a little steep with a little reverse tumble to get the club back on to a better plane for impact.

 

[ej20]

Across the line is only a fault if you can't transition to a good plane.Across the line is not in itself a fault but most players who are less ATL can get on a good plane in the transition easier.The more you are ATL the harder this move is.

I already mentioned that being a little bit steep in the transition is fine.Problems arise when you become too steep and that is a fault.

 

[dbl]

Just to add to the ATL discussion, Brian has said in regards the "New Release" thread that some ATL is preferred for it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

This just to start some dialogue but if you stop the DTL view when your hands are shoulder high in the downswing, you wont see any good ballstrikers in that position. Right elbow behind and high, steepish club, flat turn, off the right heel and early unwind.

 

[ej20]

Yup,when the hands are back to shoulder height in the dsw,the right elbow should be lower than the left elbow and the club pointing at least halfway between the feet and the ball.Average players will have the left elbow lower than the right and the club pointing at their feet.It's an indication that the pivot is not working correctly and also an indication of the impending pivot stall and subsequent lack of hip extension in the follow through.

 

[jbrunk]

Yup,when the hands are back to shoulder height in the dsw,the right elbow should be lower than the left elbow and the club pointing at least halfway between the feet and the ball.Average players will have the left elbow lower than the right and the club pointing at their feet.It's an indication that the pivot is not working correctly and also an indication of the impending pivot stall and subsequent lack of hip extension in the follow through.

That is what I have been working on this summer with some success, but I still don't have it yet. To get to this position, don't you have to lay it off somewhere in the transition?

 

[Jared Willerson]

You shouldn't have to consciously lay it off.

I really think getting the hands going away from the target without tugging the left arm would help this predicament.

The early unwind is the result of the butt of the club going ( what the golfer probably feels) at the ball, in reality it is way too steep and an early unwind gives a bit of room to stall the pivot without sticking the club in the ground.

 

[jbrunk]

You shouldn't have to consciously lay it off.

I really think getting the hands going away from the target without tugging the left arm would help this predicament.

The early unwind is the result of the butt of the club going ( what the golfer probably feels) at the ball, in reality it is way too steep and an early unwind gives a bit of room to stall the pivot without sticking the club in the ground.

Wouldn't laying it off be the opposite of tugging? How can you 'not consciously lay it off'? Do the hands lay it off, or does the pivot create that position? I used to think it was the pivot, but I don't think so anymore.