Irons off the toe

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wpfisher

wpfisher

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So my new set of the callaway x prototype irons came in yesterday and what do I do all day on the course, shots off the toe. I wasn't too far away from the ball and I wasn't reaching out to the ball; what am I doing wrong? OTT? Flipping? Funny thing is all my wedges, pitches and chips were all on the sweet spot. Any suggestions are welcome.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
have you checked your lie angles? Just because you "ordered them" one way doesn't mean they actually come that way. First thing i do when i get new irons is get them bent for lie/loft.
 
wpfisher

wpfisher

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Yes. I had both the loft and lie angles checked; lofts were on and each iron 2 degress upright. Toe shots from that would mean too flat, correct?




Jim Kobylinski said:
have you checked your lie angles? Just because you "ordered them" one way doesn't mean they actually come that way. First thing i do when i get new irons is get them bent for lie/loft.
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Mashie72

New
Upright Irons

wpfisher,

In club fitting, it's my understanding that people who swing flatly tend to hit the ball off the heel and steeply off the toe...Therefore you might have a steeper than normal lie and your clubs are fitted to you as initially designed @ 2 degrees upright...However, I'd hit some balls off a dynamic lie board and see where your club makes a mark on the bottom of the sole..If it's towards the toe, then you need to bend your irons more flat to get the mark in the middle of the sole..

Hope it helps,

Mashie72
 
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pieman

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actually, wouldn't marks on the toes sound indicate you would need a more upright lie angle and have the clubs bent more upright?
 
teacherfitter

teacherfitter

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Flatter?

Mashie72 said:
wpfisher,

In club fitting, it's my understanding that people who swing flatly tend to hit the ball off the heel and steeply off the toe...Therefore you might have a steeper than normal lie and your clubs are fitted to you as initially designed @ 2 degrees upright...However, I'd hit some balls off a dynamic lie board and see where your club makes a mark on the bottom of the sole..If it's towards the toe, then you need to bend your irons more flat to get the mark in the middle of the sole..

Hope it helps,

Mashie72
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If the mark is on the toe, it depends on what the ball is doing! Toe mark with ball going left is a product of too much face closure. Toe mark ball going to the right indicates a lie angle that is too flat. A mark in the heel of the club with the ball going left is too upright. In any event a professionally trained teacher/fitter will be able to determine the above.
 
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Mashie72

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More Fitting Details

Also, for every .25 inches the mark is towards the toe, the bend is 1 degree steeper..

For every .5 inch the club length is longer than standard, the club should be bent 1 degree flatter too..

Lately I've seen these newer stock factory clubs on the market with longer shaft lengths..The new Callaway 7-iron I looked at was closer to my older 5-iron in length...Therefore I'd be real careful about having new clubs bent steeper if indeed they are longer than standard :rolleyes:

And I agree with TeacherFitter, that the ball flight pattern must be taken into consideration as well..
 
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pieman

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as i stated, if the marks are on the toe side, you would need to bend the toe up, thereby giving a more upright lie angle. correct?
 
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Mashie72

New
More upright is right

pieman,

Thanks for your input..I reread my Tom Wishon book and it confirms that that if marks are on the toe side of of center, then bend it more upright..I mispoke the first time..but maybe Jim has some other info..

If everyone doesn't agree, then I'd be happy to get out my lie board with bending machine and test it out..:)

Mashie72
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
teacherfitter has the best answer...but here is my half answer:

When the mark is on the toe, MOST of the time you need more upright lie angles but depending on your clubhead PATH sometimes you'll need the iron bent FLATTER.

And of course vice versa
 
cmartingolf

cmartingolf

New
Handicap?

wpfisher said:
So my new set of the callaway x prototype irons came in yesterday and what do I do all day on the course, shots off the toe. I wasn't too far away from the ball and I wasn't reaching out to the ball; what am I doing wrong? OTT? Flipping? Funny thing is all my wedges, pitches and chips were all on the sweet spot. Any suggestions are welcome.
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What's your skill level?

It sounds odd that the short irons are on the button and the mid to long are toe shots.

The shaft is coming in too steeply on the mid to long irons, so the toe is digging and the heel is high.

Either the lie angles are bad or you are steep and the shaft is above plane on the mid to long irons.
 
wpfisher

wpfisher

New
I went to Clubfit here in Louisville a few weeks back and there were some interesting results. I can tell you that I definitely swing inside to out with the shorter irons, and hit mostly fat shots as opposed to thin ones. I was hitting 6 irons that were upwards of 5 degrees upright and still had marks on the toe of the club using impact tape on the sole. Damon Lucas said during one of Brian's show that I was "backing" out of the swing trying to "fit it in." I then really made an effort to make sure I was not flipping the club. I have had some real results. the toe shots are improving.

Cmartin, I am about a 5-6 handicap and know for sure I get steep sometimes, which like you said, can get away with on shorter irons but not the long ones.

Jim, is that why VIjay is like 6'3" and has 2 degree flat clubs because his path is so inside out?
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
wpfisher said:
Jim, is that why VIjay is like 6'3" and has 2 degree flat clubs because his path is so inside out?
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Actually i believe he plays 4* flat; lol i play 2* and my path isn't excessive inside/out at all. I also know he does that to help keep the face open and promote his fade.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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Jim Kobylinski said:
Actually i believe he plays 4* flat; lol i play 2* and my path isn't excessive inside/out at all. I also know he does that to help keep the face open and promote his fade.
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So Vijay uses 4* flat even though his plane angle is less than 4* flat at impact?


Question for you guys: how valid is the idea of using lie angle as a means to control clubface rather than purely fitting your shaft angle at impact, which is what I think is meant to be?
 
T

Tom Bartlett

Administrator
tongzilla said:
So Vijay uses 4* flat even though his plane angle is less than 4* flat at impact?


Question for you guys: how valid is the idea of using lie angle as a means to control clubface rather than purely fitting your shaft angle at impact, which is what I think is meant to be?
Click to expand...


I've seen people try it. No consistency. Imagine using a club that is too upright. When you hit the ground the face will want to close. How much will it close. What if the ground is dry, wet, hard pan etc.

With a driver off of a tee though, it might help someone with a slice but then there are the rest of the clubs to deal with.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Interesting tom

I have been told that lie angle has zero effect on face angle for a driver since it doesn't interact with the ground
 
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Tom Bartlett

Administrator
All you need is that magnet thingy that sticks to the face of the club. put it on a driver that is too upright and it will show you where the face is pointing. I have changed several driver lie angles on my "mitchell" it makes a difference. If your putter has loft and you hit the ball with the toe off the ground, will the ball start left (even though you don't make contact with the ground)?
 
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