Is it possible to create tour golfers?

[Richie3Jack]

There is one good junior girl golfer at the club I play at who should be a shoe-in for a D-I scholarship and she does swing it quite well. But, she rarely practices and every time I see her on the range...without fail...she is texting 1/2 the time. And I was told by somebody that she's thinking about not playing college golf because she doesn't want to (wonder what her parents think of her passing up a full ride).

I agree with Jared. Koreans on the PGA Tour? Not an abundance of them. On the LPGA? Sure...there are so much few female golfers out there. Put it this way...in college, the men and women teams each get 5 full scholarships. The men typically have teams of 10 and give a 1/2 scholarship to each. The women usually have teams of 5 and give a full ride to each. Why? Far more men golfers than women golfers.






3JACK

 

[RVArya]

You should only compare LPGA players to other LPGA players, comparing their game to PGA is not fair. The best players in LPGA are the best among their peers. . Perseverance and hard work will always pay, doesn't matter whether they are men or women

Examples like one lady golfer is texting...so all women players are lazy are without any merit. The reason why women college teams have fewer could well due to fewer international players coming to US.

 

[magicmarker]

this is from the book 'Ben Hogan's secret" specifically it is a letter from Hogan to a usga member

"... over the last few years a change has come over the way golf is played. This change has nothing to do with better clubs or better balls. The game simply no longer produces champions and I seem to be the only one who knows why.... Golf defined me. It was my life. Every day I played golf was a special blessing to me. My family wasn't rich. They were poor. I didn't practice at country clubs, I used any course and any field I could walk to. I didn't have sponsors to help me stay on tour. If I didn't win, I had to quit because I didn't have enough money to continue. In a way I had more advantages than the golfers on tour today because I knew what it took to win. They don't.
Haven't you wondered about this? Don't you want to know why our professional golfers win a major tournament or two and then retreat into obscurity? Why they win two or three tournaments a year and are never heard from again? You've heard the excuses just as I have. There's more competition on today's tour. Baloney! If Vardon or Jones came back today and played on better courses with better equipment they would dominate just like they did in their time. The next great champion will not come out of the pack. He (or she) will not play by anyone else's rules. He'll be controversial, and he'll change the game. When you decide to win, don't be surprised if you try to hold yourself back, too. It won't just be others who will be in your way. At each step of the way, you'll be reluctant to risk what you've already gained. You'll be tempted to join the pack, to do things their way, so that the criticism will stop. Don't give in. I wasn't born a champion. Golf made me a champion..........By now, it should be clear to you that I want you to become a champion. Should it be golf? I cant answer that for you, but I can give you the formula I've found that will make you a champion in whatever you do.
1. Find something you love
2. Give your whole heart to it
3. Don't let anyone or anything come between you and your goal

The last step was the most excruciating for me. I had to mount a twenty-four hour effort every day to achieve it. As you get onto your path, you'll find out just as I did how hard the last step is. But the rewards will more than offset the effort. I wish you a good game and a good life."

I skipped over some of the letter and just cherry picked what I thought was pertinent to this thread.

Obviously my short answer to the original post would be NO. This game is too dependent on the mental state of the individual, and the willpower required usually comes from within.

 

[faux_maestro]

this is from the book 'Ben Hogan's secret" specifically it is a letter from Hogan to a usga member

"... over the last few years a change has come over the way golf is played. This change has nothing to do with better clubs or better balls. The game simply no longer produces champions and I seem to be the only one who knows why.... Golf defined me. It was my life. Every day I played golf was a special blessing to me. My family wasn't rich. They were poor. I didn't practice at country clubs, I used any course and any field I could walk to. I didn't have sponsors to help me stay on tour. If I didn't win, I had to quit because I didn't have enough money to continue. In a way I had more advantages than the golfers on tour today because I knew what it took to win. They don't.
Haven't you wondered about this? Don't you want to know why our professional golfers win a major tournament or two and then retreat into obscurity? Why they win two or three tournaments a year and are never heard from again? You've heard the excuses just as I have. There's more competition on today's tour. Baloney! If Vardon or Jones came back today and played on better courses with better equipment they would dominate just like they did in their time. The next great champion will not come out of the pack. He (or she) will not play by anyone else's rules. He'll be controversial, and he'll change the game. When you decide to win, don't be surprised if you try to hold yourself back, too. It won't just be others who will be in your way. At each step of the way, you'll be reluctant to risk what you've already gained. You'll be tempted to join the pack, to do things their way, so that the criticism will stop. Don't give in. I wasn't born a champion. Golf made me a champion..........By now, it should be clear to you that I want you to become a champion. Should it be golf? I cant answer that for you, but I can give you the formula I've found that will make you a champion in whatever you do.
1. Find something you love
2. Give your whole heart to it
3. Don't let anyone or anything come between you and your goal

The last step was the most excruciating for me. I had to mount a twenty-four hour effort every day to achieve it. As you get onto your path, you'll find out just as I did how hard the last step is. But the rewards will more than offset the effort. I wish you a good game and a good life."

I skipped over some of the letter and just cherry picked what I thought was pertinent to this thread.

Obviously my short answer to the original post would be NO. This game is too dependent on the mental state of the individual, and the willpower required usually comes from within.

This is a GREAT post. What Ben says sounds an awful lot like what Brian has said about learning to be a great teacher because he HAD to just to survive.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Examples like one lady golfer is texting...so all women players are lazy are without any merit.

I don't think it has much to do with being lazy...it's just what interests you and what drives you. She's just into other things, particularly a social life, much more than she is into golf. My thoughts on it is if she has the grades, she could pretty much go to any college she wants...for free. And even if you are more into the social life than golf...you can pick the college with the best social life and play on their team...and do it for free.

Anyway, the point is about programs to create Tour golfers. I'm inclined to say no. I wouldn't expect a 100% success rate, but I would expect something quite good. And there's nothing with a 'good' success rate on the PGA Tour. On the LPGA a program can take advantage of the dearth of female golfers. There is no lack of male golfers.






3JACK

 

[ekennedy]

Not exactly accurate. There's a lot to becoming great and been born is probably the most important factor. Hard to create greatness from mediocrity, talent wise or with limited physical attributes even with better info and Trackman, it's a complicated recipe, but I think you have to be born with some of the right ingredients to make the Greatness recipe a success. JMO.

There is no such thing as God given ability to play golf. It is learned. Period. The only common denominator in Tour caliber players is desire. For every Dustin Johnson there are 10 Kevin Sutherlands or Tom Kites. I've played with guys in the late 90's who are still trying to make a go at it. They haven't become better athletes since then, but they still have the desire...and they will probably make it to the Tour. Thus, they are Tour quality.

 

[wulsy]

I have a bit of experience with this very subject in a way.

Back in the late 90's and early 2000's I was a student of Hank Haney and one of his top teachers (Mark Murphy) I've posted my sad tale of wasted money here before. I went to Hank's Golf Ranch in McKinney when it was at it's peak and his youth program was full of kids. It was pretty darn impressive to be on the range before or after my lesson and see 20-30 kids, ages 5-18, all hitting beautiful golf shots with almost identical swings. Some of the really young one's were almost surreal in how well they hit the ball. They all learned the same golf swing with the same instruction from the first day they set foot on the range. They had weekly competitive tournaments there at the Ranch and they traveled a LOT to AJGA tournaments. These kids were groomed from the beginning to be great golfers. Yet, if you check on these kids later on in life, only Hunter Mahan could be considered a certified star and his dad was one of the Haney instructors. I wouldn't think that one PGA Tour star out of several thousand kids would be considered a successful experiment. That's not saying that Haney's Youth Program didn't create a LOT of good golfers that played in college or at a high level......but he certainly hasn't created a stable of PGA Tour players out of the kids that have passed through his program. And a lot of these kids were very talented and came from families that were willing and able to spend the money it took to reach the highest level their kids were capable of reaching. Yet few of them reached that top level.

In addition, my oldest daughter spent a semester at the IMG Soccer Academy in Bradenton Fl. courtesy of United States Soccer when she was in the National Pool in 2002. On site was was the David Ledbetter Academy and she roomed with a girl that was a full time resident in the Ledbetter Academy. Kids in the IMG academies (which included golf, baseball, soccer, tennis, and hockey at that time) went to school on site for half of the day and trained the other half. They were as close to playing a sport full time as any kids you will find and I can't think of many Ledbetter graduates that went on to PGA or LPGA Tour careers. Maybe you could include Paula Creamer and Sean O'Hair but neither spent much time at the Academy and in Sean's case his learning was on the mini-tours when he was a teenager.

So, I have to agree with Brian.......no.

Interesting. So I guess Hunter Mahan's Dad was a better teacher than Haney Adam Scott's Dad is/was a golf pro as well come to think of it. Davis Love and David Duval also. Maybe that's the secret. One thing is for sure, not many make it at this game on their own.

My take on it would also be "no", it can't really be done. You can create a bunch of decent players (plus HCP-ers) but that's about as far as it goes. Sweden tried it back in the 80s and 90s, Australia also as far as I know. To use Korea as an example is a bit absurd considering their lack of presence on the mens' tours.

The difference between success and failure in golf is so small, so subtle and so individual. For that reason I don't think a one size fits all programm will ever work. It has been tried and it has never worked. So I'm with the no guys.

 

[footwedge]

There is no such thing as God given ability to play golf. It is learned. Period. The only common denominator in Tour caliber players is desire. For every Dustin Johnson there are 10 Kevin Sutherlands or Tom Kites. I've played with guys in the late 90's who are still trying to make a go at it. They haven't become better athletes since then, but they still have the desire...and they will probably make it to the Tour. Thus, they are Tour quality.

Where did I say that it is a God given ability to play golf? I don't even believe in a God anyones God, I commented on becoming Great not just tour quality , and if it just takes learning and desire we could all be on tour.Period. I want to be able to fly so bad and I study and practice so hard but I still can't fly, why oh why can't I fly?

Maybe if I was born with wings I just might have a shot at it...lol. Redbull?...ha.

 

[DCgolf]

There are somewhere around 25 million golfers in the US. 125 of them have tour cards. That math tells me that .000005 percent of golfers in this country make the tour. That elite group is a perfect blend of the following: physical ability, personality and opportunity. All three have to be 100% present to make it. So no I don't think they're born, they are crafted from those three vital components.

 

[ej20]

Whether or not tour players are born will never be answered but any instructor who believes they can take any talented kid and get him on tour is seriously deluded.Their batting average is going to be awful.

 

[Kevin Shields]

When 6 or 7 out of every 10 Dustin Johnsons choose golf over hockey, basketball or baseball the US will "catch up" to the other countries. Our best athletes and athletic minded kids simply do not play golf.

 

[ekennedy]

Whether or not tour players are born will never be answered but any instructor who believes they can take any talented kid and get him on tour is seriously deluded.Their batting average is going to be awful.

I agree with you, however if a teacher sizes up a students future based on their perceived athletic ability (especially at a young age) they are equally misguided. If a student comes to you and says their dream is to play golf for a living its your job to help them achieve THEIR goals, not the teachers. Its certainly unlikely that they will become one of the top 125 players in the world, but who's to say what the future holds and how hard someone is willing to work?

Isn't that why we ALL play golf? To see how good we can get? Keep working until you are a +5 or +6 and see what happens.

 

[Jared Willerson]

The recent Golf Digest article is absolutely ridiculous. There were actual quotes in there saying that "The HS qb that used to be embarrassed to play golf isn't embarrassed anymore...he is not playing football"....What?

Just look at the odds. If you have a kid who is a talented baseball player AND golfer. 125 tour cards (around 300 if you count Euro and other tours). Pro baseball has 25 teams with the option to expand and 25 players on each team that is 625 spots. You effectively DOUBLE your chance of making it by choosing baseball. The same thing goes with football. On top of that you have a better chance of getting your college 100% paid for.

The GD article also went on to say what great athletes in golf there are now. Look it, I just got back from the PGA Championship. For every player that was 6'2" or taller there were 4 that were around 5'9". I don't care what anybody says, the sweetspot height for golf is around 5'10", sure, the taller players can bomb it and all that stuff, but I think there is an advantage of being close to the ground.

McIlroy, Mannasero, Fowler none of these guys look over 5'7".

I apologize if this post is in the wrong thread, but reading that article basically discouraged any kid from dreaming and the whole thing was based on a bunch bunk that "golf fitness experts" said.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Golf will always be a game of control over power. The exception creates the rule. Luke Donald is "gimpish" off the tee and in stature, but is the world#1. Obviously, you need adequate length to attack many venues, but power is really a marketing ploy. Give me straight and made putts. Size can be as much a disadvantage as advantage, there is definitely a point of no return.

 

[Richie3Jack]

The Tour is becoming more and more about power over control. Fwy % have gone down dramatically and driving distance has gone up dramatically. And I'd be willing to bet that the distance from the edge of the fairway has gone up (they only track that back to 2008).

I don't disagree, Jared. I'm 6'4" tall and have always been pretty tall for my age and always felt like being tall had some big disadvantages. If you're 5'9" tall and can generate clubhead speed like many of these guys do, I think that is a huge advantage. The moving parts tend to not need those big movements if those moving parts are smaller.

But the game is more about power because they keep making courses longer and the rough shorter and O.B. is almost extinct on Tour courses.

When I originally did my statistical research, probably one of the biggest shockers I found was that if a golfer is long off the tee, they can get away with poor putting. A guy like Heath Slocum is likely to struggle to keep his card over Robert Garrigus. Both are bad putters. And Slocum hits it more accurately and consistently...but Garrigus has so much more distance and that alone keeps him in the hunt.

But the difference is a guy like Rory or Fowler...relatively small guys in today's society that are generating 118 mph+ clubhead speed. Dustin Johnson generates about 123+, but can't control it quite as well as the smaller guys do.





3JACJK

 

[wulsy]

When 6 or 7 out of every 10 Dustin Johnsons choose golf over hockey, basketball or baseball the US will "catch up" to the other countries. Our best athletes and athletic minded kids simply do not play golf.

It's no different anywhere else Kevin. In Europe everyone plays football (soccer to you guys). In most European countries golf is a game for strange little rich boys who can't play any other games very well.

In the UK the best "athletes" (big 6'2"-6'6'" over 200lb, fast, strong) play rugby and the athletically gifted from poor backgrounds play soccer. Golf is a non-event regarding sporting prowess and the ability to pull the chicks. In Germany even less gifted athletes play golf (soccer, athletics, handball, tennis are MUCH bigger). And its the same in every other European country.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Remember I didnt say the best athletes, per se. Just the best ones with the right build as well as athletically minded. Those arent usually the rich kids, who were spawned by most likely a non athletic father. Generalizing of course, but thats been my experience for the most part.

 

[drewyallop]

10000 hours?

There has been intelligent debunking of this meme. See Tyler Cowen's blog "Marginal Revolution". Short version:the "science" is shaky. Innate talent is important -very important.