Is there any hope?

[Kevin Shields]

You're probably right. I'd just quit........

Are you kidding me?? Good positions, just not enough "OOOMPH"
Like cmartin said, backswing is a little forced, manipulated and not doing enough to rev up the engine making it difficult to produce a "reciprical" move on the downswing.

 

[aa034321]

You're probably right. I'd just quit........

Are you kidding me?? Good positions, just not enough "OOOMPH"
Like cmartin said, backswing is a little forced, manipulated and not doing enough to rev up the engine making it difficult to produce a "reciprical" move on the downswing.

Kevin, anything specific as far as a feel or drill I should concentrate on to get more "OOOMPH"?

I know what you're saying is right on because I feel powerless going back and coming down so I'm not really coiling. I've started trying to incorporate some LCT to maybe help with loading at transition. I'm just not sure what the correct pivot back should feel like.

 

[dashfan87]

step on that left foot...

 

[ej20]

aa,

Like Kevin and cmartin have said your positions are fine plane wise but the downswing is mostly arms dominated.This is not necessarily a bad thing.Brian Gay does something similar and hes a multiple winner on tour.

But my opinion is that most long hitters are more pivot dominted on the downswing.If you desire more distance maybe that is what you need to work on.

Feel wise is hard to offer advice as feel is very subjective and can differ wildly from player to player.

You need to get your right shoulder more "downplane".Your right shoulder has a nice on plane motion on the downswing but not enough down.It needs to be lower at impact.A high right shoulder at impact is an indication of a hands and arms dominated downswing.A more bent over posture will help achieve this.Your posture throughout the swing is too upright especially for a seven iron.

Before you make any changes understand it won't be easy.Going from an upright posture arm swing to a more bent over pivot swing is a huge swing change.

 

[aa034321]

aa,

Like Kevin and cmartin have said your positions are fine plane wise but the downswing is mostly arms dominated.This is not necessarily a bad thing.Brian Gay does something similar and hes a multiple winner on tour.

But my opinion is that most long hitters are more pivot dominted on the downswing.If you desire more distance maybe that is what you need to work on.

Feel wise is hard to offer advice as feel is very subjective and can differ wildly from player to player.

You need to get your right shoulder more "downplane".Your right shoulder has a nice on plane motion on the downswing but not enough down.It needs to be lower at impact.A high right shoulder at impact is an indication of a hands and arms dominated downswing.A more bent over posture will help achieve this.Your posture throughout the swing is too upright especially for a seven iron.

Before you make any changes understand it won't be easy.Going from an upright posture arm swing to a more bent over pivot swing is a huge swing change.

ej, what you're saying makes complete sense to me. About a year ago I spent a few practice sessions working on a more bent over posture after studying one of Brian's articles and noticing how much more he was bent over and his axis tilt. Had one really good session at the range where I started hitting some really good shots especially with long irons (btw...the club in my video is a 5 iron but i think your point is still right on).

To me, the feel of what you're talking about is like the club is more under the upper body, especially on the downswing...more pendulum like...my only thoughts would be 1. could that lead to being too steep and 2. will it make it easier/harder to get from my right side onto the left, which I already struggle with. I'll experiment some more.

 

[alexlimco]

ej, what you're saying makes complete sense to me. About a year ago I spent a few practice sessions working on a more bent over posture after studying one of Brian's articles and noticing how much more he was bent over and his axis tilt. Had one really good session at the range where I started hitting some really good shots especially with long irons (btw...the club in my video is a 5 iron but i think your point is still right on).

To me, the feel of what you're talking about is like the club is more under the upper body, especially on the downswing...more pendulum like...my only thoughts would be 1. could that lead to being too steep and 2. will it make it easier/harder to get from my right side onto the left, which I already struggle with. I'll experiment some more.

Save yourself some grief and drive to wherever BM is around. If he's not 1/2 way round the world, I would have done that myself. And if BM does not go around you, perhaps you might want to drop in on MJ and the big bronx.

 

[ej20]

ej, what you're saying makes complete sense to me. About a year ago I spent a few practice sessions working on a more bent over posture after studying one of Brian's articles and noticing how much more he was bent over and his axis tilt. Had one really good session at the range where I started hitting some really good shots especially with long irons (btw...the club in my video is a 5 iron but i think your point is still right on).

To me, the feel of what you're talking about is like the club is more under the upper body, especially on the downswing...more pendulum like...my only thoughts would be 1. could that lead to being too steep and 2. will it make it easier/harder to get from my right side onto the left, which I already struggle with. I'll experiment some more.

No the club should not feel under the upper body on the downswing.That would mean you are still being hands dominated.

You need to pivot through the ball a lot farther through than you think is needed at impact whilst leaving the hands and club behind.Think of it as the pivot is pulling against the inertia of the club and hands.This is going to be a very strange sensation if you have swung with your arms all your golfing life.

If you are using the TGM principle of aiming point for your hands,then I suggest you drop it for the full swing.It might be ok for short pitches but for most players it doesn't work on the full swing.Trying to drive the hands to an aiming point with the full swing can lead to the very thing it's trying to avoid.Over acceleration.

 

[puttmad]

aa,
A couple of thoughts for you...

Try compressing your left side (between the shoulder and hip) more in the early stages of the backswing...this involves the use of the Quadratus Lumborum muscle, which connects the lower ribcage to the top of the hip bone), so compress, then turn...

This should eliminate the slight raising up you are doing to get the club right back during the backswing...it should also eliminate any weight shift onto the outside of your right foot, which I am suspecting you get now and again?....

To do a simple downswing from there, initially you can simply do the opposite, i.e. compress the right side from the top, which should give you more left side extension than you are getting now....that will be all you can think about at first...no need to think about your hands/arms, they will react accordingly all on their own...

Hope this helps...

 

[Matt 4-L]

Try compressing your left side (between the shoulder and hip) more in the early stages of the backswing...this involves the use of the Quadratus Lumborum muscle, which connects the lower ribcage to the top of the hip bone), so compress, then turn...

Can you explain how to find this muscle? I have also always struggled with a slight lift on the back swing.

 

[vjsinger]

aa,
A couple of thoughts for you...

Try compressing your left side (between the shoulder and hip) more in the early stages of the backswing...this involves the use of the Quadratus Lumborum muscle, which connects the lower ribcage to the top of the hip bone), so compress, then turn...

This should eliminate the slight raising up you are doing to get the club right back during the backswing...it should also eliminate any weight shift onto the outside of your right foot, which I am suspecting you get now and again?....

To do a simple downswing from there, initially you can simply do the opposite, i.e. compress the right side from the top, which should give you more left side extension than you are getting now....that will be all you can think about at first...no need to think about your hands/arms, they will react accordingly all on their own...

Hope this helps...

IMO..this advice that you got off of another site really is dependent on your BS shoulder turn. It CAN work if you have a steeper shoulder turn..I guess, it can also give you a case of the weak wipes.

For aa.. I'd listen to Kevin and Martin. Feel the clubhead a little more, really make it whip through the zone...RELAX. Id add another couple things. One thing I like to do during my warm-up is hit little half swing pitch shots with a 9-iron. I hit a series of different trajectories. I turn that 9 into a 8 to a 7 to a 6 to a pw, you get the idea. Really feel the hold of the twistaway on the way down, with relaxed arms and a good pivot of course. I would bet the more you try and agressively add pivot the more loft you are going to add and the weaker the shots. Really learn to relax and retain the twist on the DS and I think that will help you alot.

 

[aa034321]

IMO..this advice that you got off of another site really is dependent on your BS shoulder turn. It CAN work if you have a steeper shoulder turn..I guess, it can also give you a case of the weak wipes.

For aa.. I'd listen to Kevin and Martin. Feel the clubhead a little more, really make it whip through the zone...RELAX. Id add another couple things. One thing I like to do during my warm-up is hit little half swing pitch shots with a 9-iron. I hit a series of different trajectories. I turn that 9 into a 8 to a 7 to a 6 to a pw, you get the idea. Really feel the hold of the twistaway on the way down, with relaxed arms and a good pivot of course. I would bet the more you try and agressively add pivot the more loft you are going to add and the weaker the shots. Really learn to relax and retain the twist on the DS and I think that will help you alot.

I can tell after reading some of the comments, thinking about how my swing feels and re-watching the video that somewhere along the way I lost the "whip" of the club because of "stiff wrists" or at least a reluctance to let the wrists c0ck dynamically at the top (I can make swings with very relaxed arms and wrists and it looks the same as the video so somehow I'm keeping the club from really getting dynamic at the top). Last night I spent some time swinging with the feel of letting the club feel a little more "floppy" at the top (if that makes sense) and then really thinking about the whip at the bottom. Not sure if this is the correct feel but it's something I remember doing in the past that for whatever reason I stopped, probably in an effort to keep the ball from going everywhere.

The twistaway is a bit of a mystery to me, and i think grip has something to do with it. I think years ago I played with more of a cupped left wrist at the top, which actually helps with feel of more wrist c0ck for me but not sure if that's good or bad, but I found over time that it left the face too open and led to the rights.

So at times I've had success with the twistaway feel, especially at transition down, but it seems to work best if my grip is what seems really weak to me, otherwise it feels like I'm hooding it and not letting the face open to the plane on the way back. Not sure if that makes sense but I struggle with how much closed the face should feel going back and wonder if trying to keep it shut leads to other BS issues, like the lifting you can see in my swing. My BS looks and feels more in then up instead of up then in. Does anyone else see that?

 

[rogerdodger]

Your backswing looks good, you should get confessions of a former flipper to activate your downswing pivot. If you use twistaway, you should be able to mash it with your pivot as Brian discusses. I also assume you don't take much of a divot correct?

 

[puttmad]

....

IMO..this advice that you got off of another site really is dependent on your BS shoulder turn. It CAN work if you have a steeper shoulder turn..I guess, it can also give you a case of the weak wipes.

For aa.. I'd listen to Kevin and Martin. Feel the clubhead a little more, really make it whip through the zone...RELAX. Id add another couple things. One thing I like to do during my warm-up is hit little half swing pitch shots with a 9-iron. I hit a series of different trajectories. I turn that 9 into a 8 to a 7 to a 6 to a pw, you get the idea. Really feel the hold of the twistaway on the way down, with relaxed arms and a good pivot of course. I would bet the more you try and agressively add pivot the more loft you are going to add and the weaker the shots. Really learn to relax and retain the twist on the DS and I think that will help you alot.

vj,

You may well have seen this somewhere else, but I didn't get it from there, and it is not dependent on the steepness of the shoulder turn (it, in fact, creates a slightly steeper shoulder turn).... as for "weak wipes" have you actually tried it?...

 

[puttmad]

...

Can you explain how to find this muscle? I have also always struggled with a slight lift on the back swing.

Stand next to a wall (lean on it with one of your shoulders)....raise the leg farthest from the wall away from the wall as high as you can....you will feel the muscle at the top of your lift...try not to hurt yourself..

In fact the motion is only started with the QL muscle, as basically it is not a strong muscle and the action is automatically taken over by the spinea muscles on that partticular side on the back that you are using...

 

[vjsinger]

I can tell after reading some of the comments, thinking about how my swing feels and re-watching the video that somewhere along the way I lost the "whip" of the club because of "stiff wrists" or at least a reluctance to let the wrists c0ck dynamically at the top (I can make swings with very relaxed arms and wrists and it looks the same as the video so somehow I'm keeping the club from really getting dynamic at the top). Last night I spent some time swinging with the feel of letting the club feel a little more "floppy" at the top (if that makes sense) and then really thinking about the whip at the bottom. Not sure if this is the correct feel but it's something I remember doing in the past that for whatever reason I stopped, probably in an effort to keep the ball from going everywhere.

The twistaway is a bit of a mystery to me, and i think grip has something to do with it. I think years ago I played with more of a cupped left wrist at the top, which actually helps with feel of more wrist c0ck for me but not sure if that's good or bad, but I found over time that it left the face too open and led to the rights.

So at times I've had success with the twistaway feel, especially at transition down, but it seems to work best if my grip is what seems really weak to me, otherwise it feels like I'm hooding it and not letting the face open to the plane on the way back. Not sure if that makes sense but I struggle with how much closed the face should feel going back and wonder if trying to keep it shut leads to other BS issues, like the lifting you can see in my swing. My BS looks and feels more in then up instead of up then in. Does anyone else see that?

Interesting. Its hard to tell on the video because of the grainy quality, but it looks to me that your left hand looks weak to me. The in and up feel you have could be because of weight distribution. I'd try to feel much more solid on my feet. At address feel like you can jump straight up in the air, i.e. feel more even distribution. You may feel like you have more weight on your heels. You will have to stand a touch further from the ball than what you are now( if you strengthen the left hand grip). My guess is that you can't really go after it and rip at it because your balance, or lack of, won't let you.

 

[vjsinger]

vj,

You may well have seen this somewhere else, but I didn't get it from there, and it is not dependent on the steepness of the shoulder turn (it, in fact, creates a slightly steeper shoulder turn).... as for "weak wipes" have you actually tried it?...

OK..weird that I just read this same exact talk on another site...anyhoo, it doesn't matter. I understand what you are getting at, and yes this may help some, but it doesn't help me really at all. I have tried it and it doesn't work for me, maybe I'm going about it wrong. The picture that it painted in my head was a rock and block type pivot action. It just doesn't help my pattern. I hit a draw, stand farther from it than some, because of my gut, and have a flatter BS shoulder turn, kind of Kenny Perry type pattern, without the super early lift late turn thing going on. Maybe you could help me understand it a little better??

 

[puttmad]

....

OK..weird that I just read this same exact talk on another site...anyhoo, it doesn't matter. I understand what you are getting at, and yes this may help some, but it doesn't help me really at all. I have tried it and it doesn't work for me, maybe I'm going about it wrong. The picture that it painted in my head was a rock and block type pivot action. It just doesn't help my pattern. I hit a draw, stand farther from it than some, because of my gut, and have a flatter BS shoulder turn, kind of Kenny Perry type pattern, without the super early lift late turn thing going on. Maybe you could help me understand it a little better??

I'm busy tonight vj, but I'll get back to you in the morning.....would you rather I PM'd it to you, it will be quite lengthy?...

 

[vjsinger]

I'm busy tonight vj, but I'll get back to you in the morning.....would you rather I PM'd it to you, it will be quite lengthy?...

Sure. No worries, PM would be great. Thank you.

 

[Matt 4-L]

Post it Puttmad...I went out and hit some balls and that was one of the best tips I have run across in quite sometime. I was really able to stay down in my posture and hit lots of great shots.

 

[aa034321]

aa,
A couple of thoughts for you...

Try compressing your left side (between the shoulder and hip) more in the early stages of the backswing...this involves the use of the Quadratus Lumborum muscle, which connects the lower ribcage to the top of the hip bone), so compress, then turn...

This should eliminate the slight raising up you are doing to get the club right back during the backswing...it should also eliminate any weight shift onto the outside of your right foot, which I am suspecting you get now and again?....

To do a simple downswing from there, initially you can simply do the opposite, i.e. compress the right side from the top, which should give you more left side extension than you are getting now....that will be all you can think about at first...no need to think about your hands/arms, they will react accordingly all on their own...

Hope this helps...

Not sure I understand completely....by compressing my left side, wouldn't that cause my upper body to tilt more toward the target on the backswing? I understand how compressing the right side on the downswing could give more axis tilt and extend the left side, not sure I understand reducing axis tilt on the backswing.

Or maybe I'm not following you....