It's Math Anyway (with a Brian Manzella video)

[cwdlaw223]

I was testing my FS few days ago and seems the after impact level has big influence to the results. So big, that even about same angle to the ball but low and long follow through gave different results than sharply up taken ch after impact. So even the ch that seems to come to impact bit negative can get positive number because it's raising very soon.

@cwdlaw223: Have to say you are the true believer , but measured is not the right answer. Anyway happy new year from here.. from 2012

Pushed me over the edge and now helps me break my barriers. No longer lost on the course.

You believe Trackman doesn't Measure attack angle???

 

[TeeAce]

Hey Tapio,

Your machine is NOT MEASURING ANYTHING—all math right?

Measured is not the right answer, Brian. Not even close.

If you make real science, and not science fiction, you have to know how it measures and what is the definition for result. I'm little surprised that it's hard to understand. To know a lot is great, to understand, it's much more.

But can you give that answer? How the AoA is defined in Trackman or in FS?

And to your question: every device is only calculating, but this case have not a lot to do with our device.

 

[TeeAce]

You believe Trackman doesn't Measure attack angle???

Tell me what is attack angle.

 

[TeeAce]

Just curious: How did you verify the different CH behaviours (low & long vs. sharply upwards), aside from feel?

From Flightscope data of course. Have you ever seen those images?

It looks like this

 

[leon]

Frankly it is now clearer than clear that the face angle thing is an IRRELEVANCY.

Why? For the simple reason that THE WHOLE D-PLANE MODEL is an ESTIMATION.

Why? Because GEAR EFFECT CANNOT MEASURED.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but please don't just tell me I'm wrong because I'm saying something negative about high end LMs.

Wulsy, I think it would be best to say that gear effect is currently NOT measured, rather than it CANNOT be. I'm pretty sure you could do it, given that with the path and face angle numbers trackman has it knows where the ball SHOULD go for an impact with no gear effect, and it measures where the ball actually goes. Difference the two and I'm sure you could readily back calculate the gear effect.

Having said that, I'm not sure how much it matters to TEACHING using a LM. You can check a player's AoA & path straight off using measured numbers right? If you're monitoring impact location with tape/marker/whatever, then you know what gear effect to expect and how that might change the face numbers. Even if you aren't, if you're familiar enough with the D-plane you'd know what shot to expect from the number spit out and any difference is due to gear effect. Wouldn't that be enough?

And even more than all of this, if you don't use a LM for teaching, what's your alternative - video, experienced eyes, guessing? I know where I'd put my money.

 

[Frans@France]

Why? Because GEAR EFFECT CANNOT MEASURED.

why do you want to measure gear effect? Is the measured clubdata and ball data in your opinion not enough to derive the face angle at impact from it?

 

[TeeAce]

why do you want to measure gear effect? Is the measured clubdata and ball data in your opinion not enough to derive the face angle at impact from it?

The problem only occurs if sometimes the measurements / calculation result is not right. I don't say it is, but if if it is in some cases, we can adjust wrong detail on players swing.

I give you an example by AoA:

If the very late point after impact is included to AoA measurement, and player has strong "V" in his swing it can show very shallow AoA even if the player is coming with -4 AoA to the ball. Also if the measuring period starts early, the way of the release can effect that even the contact with the ball is really made with same AoA.

It's same with path and club face direction. When it's calculated, I'm interested to know how, so I can understand why it can give sometimes same numbers for quite different shots.

And once again to everyone to understand: I haven't said anything against those devices and like them a lot, as well using them every day. There is still something that I need to understand more in my daily teaching, because sometimes results are confusing me and the explanation might be somewhere in definitions.

 

[Kevin Shields]

why do you want to measure gear effect? Is the measured clubdata and ball data in your opinion not enough to derive the face angle at impact from it?

Tuxen has told potential buyers how many dimples off center the hit was by just looking at the numbers.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I haven't said anything against those devices...

I disagree with that statement.

A lot.

There is still something that I need to understand more in my daily teaching, because sometimes results are confusing me and the explanation might be somewhere in definitions.

I don't have ANY problems with the device. Look at the results I got from it with David.

You could learn a lot from me by asking the right questions, instead you rip me and celebrate NON-teachers.

And THAT's a fact, Jack.

 

[TeeAce]

I disagree with that statement.

A lot.




I don't have ANY problems with the device. Look at the results I got from it with David.

You could learn a lot from me by asking the right questions, instead you rip me and celebrate NON-teachers.

And THAT's a fact, Jack.

You are totally wrong with that. I'm the guy who made the decision to integrate FS to your system. We needed that or Trackman to get those numbers we couldn't get from our measurements accurate enough. I use them daily in my work and found them great help all the time. So why would I rip them? I'm selling that !!

The problem for you seems to be that I'm not buying all of that information with closed eyes. I want to understand more about that to make right decisions in my teaching. I have been asking many times if someone knows about that Aoa definition, and only I can get from you is anger, because it seems you are not able to answer that. That's fine if you can't, because either can I.

I don't know if this got any meaning, because it seems you are not willing to see what I'm saying, rather put your own thoughts there, but I try once more to clarify what I've been saying: That information is something what we specially need here where we can see the ball flight only few months a year. It's information that we need also at the time when we see the ball flight, but want to know reasons for that. I want to see if player got i.e. too much spin on his drives and want to change the AoA. But to use that information right way, I need to understand how the calculation is done. Even I like those devices, I can be critical for some information. As well I can be critical to some of our results and understand why they are like that. That's called research and science.

No one also was able to answer that question of drivers tale effect to the AoA calculation. I'm not sure how many even understood it, but when radar sees that from behind, the change of the loft works so that the tail is going down even if the face is going up. My honest!!! question was that is there a risk that we make wrong estimations about that. Honest question, because I don't know how it sees that, if you know exactly, please tell me that by technical way.

The other part is teaching where I think you feel I'm ripping those devices or you even I have explained that hundred times. We need that information what they measure to understand what should be changed. But you can't change that number without changing something in body action. Sometimes it's only small adjustment, but sometimes there needs to be more. Much more. So if I see that someones club face direction is changing between 4 open to 4 closed during 10 balls set, that's not enough for me. I need to understand why. Then I go and see the body and hand action. If I see big throw or lot of deceleration in hand speed, I go further and look again why. It doesn't help student or me only to see that the face angle varies a lot, I need to change something in action, because face angle, path, AoA and speed are only reactions.

So these are right questions for me, even if you feel uncomfortable with them.

 

[Brian Manzella]

You are totally wrong with that. I'm the guy who made the decision to integrate FS to your system. We needed that or Trackman to get those numbers we couldn't get from our measurements accurate enough. I use them daily in my work and found them great help all the time. So why would I rip them? I'm selling that !!

You sell a system that you hope people buy. If they think TrackMan is good enough to get the job done by itself, you guys are out of business.

So you try to create doubt.

Your cameras ALL lie a little. Everyone of them. Parallax galore.

I don't trust your system—how's that?

The problem for you seems to be that I'm not buying all of that information with closed eyes. I want to understand more about that to make right decisions in my teaching.

I have been to 26 PGA Merchandise Shows in a row, and for the longest time I got my jollys out of showing the manufactures of all these launch and club monitor systems how wrong they were.

They were.

TrackMan isn't.

I use it in EVERY lesson. STUDENTS of mine, buy machines to practice with. You (and your boys) keep ignoring that fact that I taught a player 80 places up the world-ranking last year USING the device. He can ACTUALLY do the things he needs to do with the club to show SMALL differences on the device. Tiger agrees.

I have been asking many times if someone knows about that Aoa definition, and only I can get from you is anger, because it seems you are not able to answer that. That's fine if you can't, because either can I.

I just spent three whole days with Fredrik. I didn't ask him that question, but I asked him 100 others. He answered them all.

I will personally ask him your question.

I think I've said that 10 times.

....we need also at the time when we see the ball flight, but want to know reasons for that. I want to see if player got i.e. too much spin on his drives and want to change the AoA. But to use that information right way, I need to understand how the calculation is done. Even I like those devices, I can be critical for some information. As well I can be critical to some of our results and understand why they are like that. That's called research and science.

The numbers you are TRYING to move, I move easily everyday.

You seem UNINTERESTED IN that.

And 1000's of folks can see this easily.

Just ask me how, bra.

 

[TeeAce]

You sell a system that you hope people buy. If they think TrackMan is good enough to get the job done by itself, you guys are out of business.

So you try to create doubt.

Your cameras ALL lie a little. Everyone of them. Parallax galore.

I don't trust your system—how's that?

Wrong again. I want to clear it out so there is no doubt any more. I got no reason to create doubt for that, just opposite. If you don't trust our system, it's up to you. Anyway I can ask what you know about that? Only believes Brian, nothing else. And for sure we are not competing with those radar system at all, we fulfill each others. And in what way our cameras are lying? Tell me something about that?




I have been to 26 PGA Merchandise Shows in a row, and for the longest time I got my jollys out of showing the manufactures of all these launch and club monitor systems how wrong they were.

They were.

TrackMan isn't.

I use it in EVERY lesson. STUDENTS of mine, buy machines to practice with. You (and your boys) keep ignoring that fact that I taught a player 80 places up the world-ranking last year USING the device. He can ACTUALLY do the things he needs to do with the club to show SMALL differences on the device. Tiger agrees.




I just spent three whole days with Fredrik. I didn't ask him that question, but I asked him 100 others. He answered them all.

I will personally ask him your question.

I think I've said that 10 times.




The numbers you are TRYING to move, I move easily everyday.

You seem UNINTERESTED IN that.

And 1000's of folks can see this easily.

Just ask me how, bra.

I'm changing those numbers also every day. Got no problem with that. And I also help quite good players to get back in track when seeing their timing in body movements is out.

But it's great to know you will ask that question, because I'd really like to know the answer. I'd like also to know if FS is doing it differently and gonna ask that from Jef if he's ready to tell it. Remember to ask also the drivers tail question, because it can help us to read better those results. I'd really like to see the measurements of all the impact area (1 ft a side) to understand more. So that way those great devices could come even better.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

I'm changing those numbers also every day. Got no problem with that. And I also help quite good players to get back in track when seeing their timing in body movements is out.

But it's great to know you will ask that question, because I'd really like to know the answer. I'd like also to know if FS is doing it differently and gonna ask that from Jef if he's ready to tell it. Remember to ask also the drivers tail question, because it can help us to read better those results. I'd really like to see the measurements of all the impact area (1 ft a side) to understand more. So that way those great devices could come even better.

It was covered in detail at the Flightscope Convention.... 2 great conventions within 2 months of each other in New York. The Flightscope Convention - The Anti Summit 2. Henri Johnson was there - Frederik Tuxen was there... anyone could have asked these gentleman anything they wanted. I know I did

 

[TeeAce]

It was covered in detail at the Flightscope Convention.... 2 great conventions within 2 months of each other in New York. The Flightscope Convention - The Anti Summit 2. Henri Johnson was there - Frederik Tuxen was there... anyone could have asked these gentleman anything they wanted. I know I did

And I hate I couldn't be there. Sometimes it's just not possible and that's why I need to ask those questions from people who has had this possibility. So can you please give the answer.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I would have bet 100,000,000,,000,000 dollars he'd ignore my work this year with David....


....birds of a feather...

 

[Todd Dugan]

The only reason you "need to do the math" is because the machine can't measure the normal to the clubface during collision.

But I'd still buy the machine tommorrow, if I could.

 

[willgolfer]

And I hate I couldn't be there. Sometimes it's just not possible and that's why I need to ask those questions from people who has had this possibility. So can you please give the answer.

Have you tried contacting Tuxen or someone at Trackman?

 

[savydan]

TeeAce,

What do YOU think is the definition of AoA?

 

[TeeAce]

TeeAce,

What do YOU think is the definition of AoA?

That doesn't matter in this case, because I'm interested to understand what parts are counted when they measure it, because we work with those devices. So whatever the definition is, if it's known, we can use it.

If I would create one, it would be maybe one inch before ball to one inch after the ball, and that can be the way they do it, I don't know. Someone already said there is a difference between FS and TM with that, but don't know if it's like that. What I know for sure, is that we got much too long period there and would say everybody don't care about our AoA for the moment.

The problem is that the arc is not linear and also the measurement is not from the arc. When measuring one angle, there has to be two lines and the angle is between them.

Like here you can see many ways to define AoA even between blue dots

 

[Michael Jacobs]

If I would create one, it would be maybe one inch before ball to one inch after the ball,

If the angle of attack measurement goes beyond impact its a disaster