Jim Hardy's One Plane Swing?

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[?]Dear Brian,

As my first time to your forum as a member, I would like to ask
"What do you think of Jim Hardy's "One Plane Swing".

I have read his book but not taken lessons from Jim in person so I do not know exactly his "hands on" teachings (and as we know we can get much more of the truths of a method when getting a lesson from the source of the material.)
All I know is that I have seen several students of the method "downunder" have problems with their backs following their attempts to adopt these principles.

What has been your experience?
 

Ryan Smither

Super Moderator
Mr. Croker, if you perform a search (link at top-right corner) on "Hardy's One Plane Swing", you will find a review of Brian's from a Seminar that he attended. There is quite a discussion that you may want to view.
 
Peter,

Welcome to the forum. I tried the one plane out to see how it fit. Didn't like it but did hit is very, very straight with little distance.

By the way, when will your TGM stuff be on DVD? Just curious, and great stuff by the way.
 

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by Peter Croker

[?]Dear Brian,

As my first time to your forum as a member, I would like to ask
"What do you think of Jim Hardy's "One Plane Swing".

I have read his book but not taken lessons from Jim in person so I do not know exactly his "hands on" teachings (and as we know we can get much more of the truths of a method when getting a lesson from the source of the material.)
All I know is that I have seen several students of the method "downunder" have problems with their backs following their attempts to adopt these principles.

What has been your experience?

If they are having back problems, something is wrong: either they are out of shape or they are doing it wrong. Pros like Don Pooley have lengthened their careers switching to the one-plane swing under Jim's guidance because of injuries from the more upright two-plane swing. I believe there may be a post or two on this topic on Hardy's site (www.jimhardygolf.com). Jim posts under "JH", LPGA hall of famer Carol Mann (VERY knowledgable and a Hardy disciple) also posts there under "lpgahf9". Since two-plane related injuries cut short her career, you might address your question regarding back problems to her. She'll want specifics, though.
 
Jeffy,

I do not know how knowledgeable you are about golf and back problems but from my research it is not at all inconceivable that many would have back problems from a body dominated golf swing. Jim Suttie, as an example, encourages a swing that is very far from a "one plane swing" for those with back problems. He certainly doesn't encourage a two plane swing with a hard leg drive either. Twisting torque is extremely difficult for the back to deal with, and that is precisely what the low back gets when one makes an X-factor maximizing type backswing. Also, as back expert Stuart McGill has shown, if one comes close to using all of their flexibility on a golf swing, going to end-range of motion either in their spine tilt through impact, or in their backswing turn, back problems will likely result.

Matt
 

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by mrodock

Jeffy,

I do not know how knowledgeable you are about golf and back problems but from my research it is not at all inconceivable that many would have back problems from a body dominated golf swing. Jim Suttie, as an example, encourages a swing that is very far from a "one plane swing" for those with back problems. He certainly doesn't encourage a two plane swing with a hard leg drive either. Twisting torque is extremely difficult for the back to deal with, and that is precisely what the low back gets when one makes an X-factor maximizing type backswing. Also, as back expert Stuart McGill has shown, if one comes close to using all of their flexibility on a golf swing, going to end-range of motion either in their spine tilt through impact, or in their backswing turn, back problems will likely result.

Matt

No doubt: Trevino and Couples are exhibits A and B (also, I've seen studies that link the "X factor" to back problems). I've never spoken to Jim, but I believe in his book he attributes their back problems to an open stance. Great one-planers like Hogan, Snead, Mickey Wright, Gary Player played with a closed stance with the long clubs, used a "body swing" and never suffered from back problems, that I am aware. Snead and Player, in particular, were/are playing great golf in their seventies.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Sorry it took a while to answer Peter, and welcome to the very best forum on the web.

I went to a JIm Hardy seminar (not by choice) and reviewed as such:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Louisville, Kentucky

Okay, it's not complete junk, but it sure ain't 100% correct either.

Jim Hardy spoke to the Kentucky Section of The PGA of America yesterday, and I was in attendance. He gave a three and a half hour presentation on his "Two Plane" Swing vs. "One Plane" swing theory.
The reception from the pros in the audience was mixed, but more favorable than not. He did get the standard Brian Manzella backdoor tongue-in-cheek question/comments from yours truly, and our own Mike Finney did nail him once on right forearm position, but for the most part he got softball questions from the typical room of mostly club pros in poorly fitting suits.

And the best part of the presentation was that Hardy admitted his theory was simplicity by omission. He also referenced this forum (not by name) and the fact that I (again not by name) ripped his ideas on plane and said—get this—that I was right.

You see Jim Hardy can teach golf. I never really doubted that. I saw him in 1990 in Nashville at the 2nd PGA Summit, and I saw him in 1996 in New Orleans at another Summit. He struck me as a good 'ball flight' teacher, which, by his own admission, he was. Trained by the famous English pro John Jacobs, Hardy taught what Jacobs taught until Hardy quit teaching in 1983.

He never said why he quit to design courses, but I think that he just got tired—much like Peter Kostis did—of not helping people enough.

He is a bright guy, and he kept turning over ideas in his head about the possibility of what Golfing Machiner's call "incompatible components." Imagine that.

He formulated his theory around two basic patterns. I'll call 'em what they are: Upright-ish Swinging from a not very bent over address position, and Flat-ish four-barrel Hitting from a bent over address position.

Along the way Hardy also discovered that the Jacobs/Toski/Wiren/PGA model for "ball flight laws" where wrong. No kidding. You could actually HOOK IT by swinging too far to the right.

This led him to come up a pattern that he now sells as The "One Plane Swing". Of course this name would cause heartburn for any Lynn Blake or Natural Golf devotees, but his idea of plane is much different than than norm.

He says, "Swings are either the arms swinging up higher than the shoulders turn, or swinging on close to what the shoulders turn."
From there he separates the pattern concepts into what he calls "steepening" movements or "shallowing" movements.

He presents as a goal, a pattern that is basically what he thinks Hogan and Snead did. It goes like this: Bend over a lot, turn in a barrel with no head movement and even some left side sag. (Lynn Blake likes it so far). Swing your arms with no clubface rotation. (Like Ben Doyle told me, sound like hitting). But, do this strictly with a shoulder turn takeaway and its below the plane arms. Let your right elbow get in an anti-extensor action position 'past the seam of your shirt' that is really the cornerstone of his method. This puts you in a top of the backswing position that will often be below the turned shoulder plane. From there, just keep the arm behind the seem and hit it with your right shoulder.

Not too bad a pattern, if you asked me. Except if you do wind up at the top of the swing below the turned shoulder plane, which will then require an 'over-the-top' move that most of his students have to have to trace a straight plane line.

Even though Hardy doesn't know a plane line from a chorus line, he does realize that the club has to swing way left of 'down-the-line.'

So, does it work? Yes. Is it ideal? Only if it looks more like Snead and less like Olin Browne.

You see, Hardy admitted that the internet golf forum pundits that shot holes in his ideas (that would be me) were right. He knows his lines aren't 'geometrically correct.' He said, "I just wanted to simplify things."

But, therein lies the problem. If you fit neatly into his two 'patterns,' Like "upright-standing-high arm-backswing-full sweep release-right to left-swingers" like Tom Watson or "aim right-bend over at address-lower arm backswing-slightly over the top-punch position right elbow-switters' like Sam Snead.

BUT, if you are a hold shot fader like David Toms, and your problem is always swinging TOO FAR TO THE RIGHT, his "two-planer" ideas, like a lean to the right address position would be death.

What if you are an upright hitter or a three-barrel swinger or—more importantly—don't have educated hands?

You are, as they say, SOL.

He really doesn't spend much time with reverse twisters like I see every day, and to be honest, he doesn't want them. To Hardy, fixing the steep outside in approach of a slicer is fixed with plane and path and not clubface.

That's what you think if you've been designing courses while the Italian Stallion (that's me Jim) has been clawing and scratching his way to the top, one slicer at a time.

Overall, Jim Hardy is a likable guy who—compared to the "Troubleshooters"—is a breath of fresh air who CAN FIX enough of Lead-posioned or Harmon-ized Tour players to convince the average club pro that his ideas are the answer.

The "Hardy Method" is easier to digest for the club pro and magazine reading amateur than Homer Kelley's system that describes all methods. And, as long as people are people, quick fixes will always be popular.

It's too bad that someone can't explain The Golfing Machine in an easy to digest manner, and with some quick fixes for common problems without bending the laws of physics. And who can bring it all to life with some panache....

Oh, wait...there is this Italian guy...

______________________________________________________________________________________

As I sit here today, it is a few nonths since that review, and I have basicall biled down Hardy's one-plane swing to a flat backswing followed by swinging left.

I can imagine a back problem resulting in a basterized version of someone's ATTEMPT at this move, but, there is nothing in this pattern that done correctly by THE RIGHT GOLFER, that would result in a back problem.

Just another pattern among trillions that COULD and DOES work for someone, but would NEVER be ideal for all.

Just like your Golf Digest cover story pattern—fine for some, but absolutely not for all.
 
While those are valid points Jeffy I think it is important to have a grounding in biomechanics in order to determine cause. It's just too damn hard with a small sample size to make sweeping determinations. I am not trying to suggest I am the guy to do this, it would take someone like Stuart McGill (backfitpro.com) to make such determinations.

Matt
 

vandal

New
quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by mrodock

Jeffy,

I do not know how knowledgeable you are about golf and back problems but from my research it is not at all inconceivable that many would have back problems from a body dominated golf swing. Jim Suttie, as an example, encourages a swing that is very far from a "one plane swing" for those with back problems. He certainly doesn't encourage a two plane swing with a hard leg drive either. Twisting torque is extremely difficult for the back to deal with, and that is precisely what the low back gets when one makes an X-factor maximizing type backswing. Also, as back expert Stuart McGill has shown, if one comes close to using all of their flexibility on a golf swing, going to end-range of motion either in their spine tilt through impact, or in their backswing turn, back problems will likely result.

Matt

No doubt: Trevino and Couples are exhibits A and B (also, I've seen studies that link the "X factor" to back problems). I've never spoken to Jim, but I believe in his book he attributes their back problems to an open stance. Great one-planers like Hogan, Snead, Mickey Wright, Gary Player played with a closed stance with the long clubs, used a "body swing" and never suffered from back problems, that I am aware. Snead and Player, in particular, were/are playing great golf in their seventies.

Trevino was struck by lightning, and Couples has had back problems for years, which I don't think are related to his swing.
 

jeffy

Banned
quote:Originally posted by mrodock

While those are valid points Jeffy I think it is important to have a grounding in biomechanics in order to determine cause. It's just too damn hard with a small sample size to make sweeping determinations. I am not trying to suggest I am the guy to do this, it would take someone like Stuart McGill (backfitpro.com) to make such determinations.

Matt

None of the great one planers had their careers cut short or hampered by chronic back problems, other than Trevino, who we've discussed. It could be a coincidence or it might not.
 
A good friend/golfing buddy of mine became obsessed with the one plane swing and not only ruined his game, but his back as well. He hasn't been able to play golf for over a month. I think he got caught up in the feel isn't real problem. What he was doing looked nothing close to a one-plane swing.

I think the one-plane swing has merit, but I would recommend that anyone trying to learn it be under the watchful eye of an instructor during the initial phases. And, I wouldn't recommned it to anyone that has flexibility issues. On another note, those who can swing on one plane appear to me be more consistent with their ball-striking.

Just my opinion of course....
 

Pro

New
quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by mrodock

While those are valid points Jeffy I think it is important to have a grounding in biomechanics in order to determine cause. It's just too damn hard with a small sample size to make sweeping determinations. I am not trying to suggest I am the guy to do this, it would take someone like Stuart McGill (backfitpro.com) to make such determinations.

Matt

None of the great one planers had their careers cut short or hampered by chronic back problems, other than Trevino, who we've discussed. It could be a coincidence or it might not.
What about the not so great one planers?

Todd
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Welcome Peter

What i don't like about the hardy one plane swing is that you have to STEEPEN your downswing to make it work because the backswing is UNDER the turned shoulder plane at the top of the swing.

Thus you have to have a bent plane line coming into the ball (out/in). You can see this when Olin Browne takes his practice swings:

- big shoulder turn that sucks the club way inside and under plane
- bending the right arm to lift the club to the top but you're too "in" so you can't reach the turned shoulder plane
- slight "steepening" move to reach the TSP but to do that you have to move the shoulder OUT
- which then forces you to come out/in on the downswing.

As long as you angle hinge, it's a perfectly viable pattern...but it's just that. One type of pattern.
 
As I was perusing the "get in position" forum I came across this



http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=357&whichpage=6


i know you ar not a fan of Redmond, but I thouhgt this was interesting given this article. It would seem Zinger is a closer match to your setup than one of the young guns:
SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. (AP) -- Two tournaments do not make a season, let alone a comeback. Even so, Paul Azinger has to be encouraged by his start this year.

It all started to turn around when he began working with Jim Hardy in Houston four months ago.

Azinger never had the prettiest swing in golf. He hunched over the ball, but it worked well enough for him to make good contact, win 13 times and a PGA Championship.

At some point, he tried to move closer and stand taller, which he thinks caused back problems and resulted in bad shots, and eventually bad scores. Hardy worked to get Azinger back to his old posture, and he already is seeing positive signs.

Azinger opened the season with a tie for 10th in the Sony Open, his best finish since a tie for sixth in the 2002 Buick Open. He followed that with another tie for 10th at the Bob Hope Chrysler Classic.

"As soon as I got taller and closer to the ball, I might have looked better, but it was just destroying me because it took me to the inside of the ball on the way down," Azinger said. "I hit thin fades and duck hooks. It was awful.

"As soon as I bent over from the waist, I felt the freedom of my upper body."

Azinger hasn't felt any pain since returning to his old posture.
 

dbl

New
>>"As soon as I got taller and closer to the ball, I might have looked better..., <<

I don't think PA's swing ever "looked" particularly good, though of course he has performed quite well with it at times.

As a DP (2 shifts) he used to have a huge forward hip motion and reverse C finish (almost more than Monty's, according to 1996 GD's spread), and it's likely any instructor toning that down could've improved his back problems.
 
quote:Originally posted by Peter Croker

[?]Dear Brian,

As my first time to your forum as a member, I would like to ask
"What do you think of Jim Hardy's "One Plane Swing".

I have read his book but not taken lessons from Jim in person so I do not know exactly his "hands on" teachings (and as we know we can get much more of the truths of a method when getting a lesson from the source of the material.)
All I know is that I have seen several students of the method "downunder" have problems with their backs following their attempts to adopt these principles.

What has been your experience?

Mr Croker~

With the understanding that you are "The" Peter Croker, I want to thank you for your contributions to this wonderful game.

Next, do you feel there is any relationship of Jim Hardy's One Plane to Mr. Kelley's zero shift? And, are you still teaching the back and up motion described in Hit Basics?

DRW
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman
-------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
What if you are an upright hitter or a three-barrel swinger or—more importantly—don't have educated hands?

You are, as they say, SOL.

He really doesn't spend much time with reverse twisters like I see every day, and to be honest, he doesn't want them. To Hardy, fixing the steep outside in approach of a slicer is fixed with plane and path and not clubface.

That's what you think if you've been designing courses while the Italian Stallion (that's me Jim) has been clawing and scratching his way to the top, one slicer at a time.

Overall, Jim Hardy is a likable guy who—compared to the "Troubleshooters"—is a breath of fresh air who CAN FIX enough of Lead-posioned or Harmon-ized Tour players to convince the average club pro that his ideas are the answer.

The "Hardy Method" is easier to digest for the club pro and magazine reading amateur than Homer Kelley's system that describes all methods. And, as long as people are people, quick fixes will always be popular.

It's too bad that someone can't explain The Golfing Machine in an easy to digest manner, and with some quick fixes for common problems without bending the laws of physics. And who can bring it all to life with some panache....

Oh, wait...there is this Italian guy...

______________________________________________________________________________________

As I sit here today, it is a few nonths since that review, and I have basicall biled down Hardy's one-plane swing to a flat backswing followed by swinging left.

I can imagine a back problem resulting in a basterized version of someone's ATTEMPT at this move, but, there is nothing in this pattern that done correctly by THE RIGHT GOLFER, that would result in a back problem.

Just another pattern among trillions that COULD and DOES work for someone, but would NEVER be ideal for all.

Just like your Golf Digest cover story pattern—fine for some, but absolutely not for all.

Dear Brian,

Thanks for your detailed info on Jim Hardy's technique. As you say - done right it works for some and with no back problems resulting.

In regard to what Golf Digest wrote on my System back in 1995 - firstly it was not described fully enough to be understood:) then. Also since then all "preferred" component parts have been slotted into place and put under the control of "educated hands"(hands controlled pivot)

I would love to have you visit with me when I come to the USA in June/July this year.

Thanks again for your take on Jim Hardy's method.

Enjoy the Hit!

Peter
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Dear Peter,

You are welcome.

"In regard to what Golf Digest wrote on my System back in 1995 - firstly it was not described fully enough to be understood then." Well, you know the game, GD will spin it their way. At least you had your cover story. We'll see how I do when I get mine.

When you visit the USA in June/July this year, you are welcome to come visit me. We have some great courses in Louisville.

You'll find what EVERYONE does who comes a callin'...

I'm the REAL DEAL!

Brian Manzella, The Itallian Stalion
 
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