Johhny Miller on Mike Weir

[jew]

Interestingly, I have never seen a swing video of Mike Bennett (originator of the S&T swing) hitting a driver to know whether he uses a leftwards-centered backswing for driver shots.

I have been around Mike and Andy a lot. I know for a fact that Mike does have a leftwards-centered backswing on all his shots. The way this swing works is the position of ball as compared to the clubface at impact.

 

[JeffM]

Puttmad

I didn't rotate the pelvis when I moved it to the end-backswing position. I simply shifted the whole pelvis as an unit slightly leftwards and rearwards - knowing that's where the right femoral head moves during the backswing pivot movement. Whether a golfer pivots against a slighly flexed right knee, or allows the right knee to straighten (like Bennett/Plummer recommends and Snead performed), the right femoral head moves leftwards and rearwards. I therefore shifted the entire pelvis as an unit to accomodate that "new" end-backswing position. I don't believe that it is anatomically possible to move the right pelvis rearward and leftwards without moving the left pelvis rightwards and forward (and vica versa). The pelvis is a single bony structure and it cannot be centrally-hinged (right pelvis moving asymmetrically/differently relative to the left pelvis).

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

No offense...Jeff....but....

I appreciate that a centered spine is "steeper" than one tilted to the right, so a centered spine can help the player that tends to get too shallow, someone with a flat armswing, for example.

This is a VERY LIMITED VIEW of what kinds of patterns and golfers need steeper and flatter shoulder turns.

WAY too many exceptions.

I can hit it fine flat and flat and steep and steep. I can hit it fine with a ssteep swing and a snap release and a flat one and a sweep release.

The stuff you are talking about is one man's ideas, but they sure ain't mine. And I believe mine to be completely superior.[/QUOTE]

BTW, I can't name a player that leans left more than a smidge.

Me neither.

 

[Brian Manzella]

And while I'm at it...

No offense to all, but....

This is the BRIAN MANZELLA Site.

We should be debating MY patterns and teaching. All this is just too much advertising for other teachers for my taste.

 

[JeffM]

Brian - I am sure that I could learn a lot watching you teach for a week.

However, it's also very true that I probably wouldn't be able to resist writing about "what I'd learnt", and I don't want to get sued

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian - I am sure that I could learn a lot watching you teach for a week.

It wouldn't take that long.

However, it's also very true that I probably wouldn't be able to resist writing about "what I'd learnt", and I don't want to get sued

Oh, everybody writes about it. They just don't try to publish it.

 

[jeffy]

This is a VERY LIMITED VIEW of what kinds of patterns and golfers need steeper and flatter shoulder turns.

WAY too many exceptions.

I can hit it fine flat and flat and steep and steep. I can hit it fine with a ssteep swing and a snap release and a flat one and a sweep release.

The stuff you are talking about is one man's ideas, but they sure ain't mine. And I believe mine to be completely superior.

I just gave a couple possibilities for the sake of brevity. A jillion combinations are possible, and there are a lot more elements that effect impact than just swingplane and shoulder plane.

By the way, your MANZELLA MATRIX (patent pending) sounds pretty similar to a certain "one man's" idea of a "plus-and-minus system" of swing instruction, presented at the 1990 PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit. You don't need to tell me: you were there.

 

[Brian Manzella]

What it IS and what it ISN'T.

The MANZELLA MATRIX system MY system based on several elements, but firstly the PATTERNS on the outside of the MATRIX—the Never Hook Again, and Never Slice Again patterns.

These patterms—and more importantly their implementation of these patterns—are completely inventions of my own Italian mind.

The patterns have both been out there for a while now, and they still stand alone as understandable, and original ideas of patterns that could win a major, but will fix you hook and slice.

The middle pattern, which will be published as the "Do It Right 2.0" pattern, is still is not even been completely disscussed in any form with anyone but me, myself and I.

Code Name: Soft Draw and Soft Fade, the two patterns between "Do It Right 2.0" and end patterns, are so new, that the MANZELLA STAFF instructors just have recently been "filled in" on them—somewhat.

So, a system, based on 5 basic patterns, explanations and implementations that no one totally could explain at this moment but me, and all the branches and classifacations that "branch" off of these 5 patterns, is something I am supposed to have come up with watching some obscure—fairly boring I might add—speech at another boring seminar that I attended?

Ah....no.

But, when the Video and the Book are released, I am sure everyone will want to claim credit for it.

Too bad, the reason that it will "take over" is UN-COPYABLE. That would be me. I have more TALENT for what I want to do then anyone else.

You know, Never Slice Again's pattern was around for quite a while in my teaching, and I was scared to publish it, becuase I thought all the other name teacher would steal it. Lots of very good teachers USE IT, and I am very glad that is.

 

[jeffy]

So, a system, based on 5 basic patterns, explanations and implementations that no one totally could explain at this moment but me, and all the branches and classifacations that "branch" off of these 5 patterns, is something I am supposed to have come up with watching some obscure—fairly boring I might add—speech at another boring seminar that I attended?

Now that I understand it better, I change my mind. The "plus and minus" system is universal and applies to all swings, not limited to just a handful of basic patterns.

Of course, when the book and dvd come out, there will be those that say this is nothing new, they've known it all the time, then start using it and, hopefully, help more golfers

 

[Leek]

Now that I understand it better, I change my mind. The "plus and minus" system is universal and applies to all swings, not limited to just a handful of basic patterns.

What's the deal Jeffy? I thought this site was to discuss and debate BRIAN'S ideas. Are you just here to attack? Pretty transparent if you ask me. YOU HAVE AN AGENDA. Your agenda is allegiance to a one size fits all system. Those systems WORK, but only for the people who are suited to them.

A little news for you. There aren't that many new ideas. What there are are new ways to organize the information, and new ways to communicate it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

!

The "plus and minus" system is universal and applies to all swings, not limited to just a handful of basic patterns.

The MANZELLA MATRIX System is an UNLIMITED number of patterns.

You'll see.

The BASIC 5 are a way to "see" the MATRIX's main "trunk."

 

[shortgamer]

That book could lower the national handicap average I mean think about it, all Brians patterns for all to read and learn. "swing to far to the right?"chapter 4, "slice the ball?" chapter 6. Whatever YOUR fault learn how to fix it. Every golf book I've seen is do it this way or that way but a book that actually fixes everybody will be awesome.

 

[Bronco Billy]

The MANZELLA MATRIX System is an UNLIMITED number of patterns.

You'll see.

The BASIC 5 are a way to "see" the MATRIX's main "trunk."

Hi There

I Understand that this a Work in Progress.... Assuming you are using the Term Matrix to be a table of Rows and Columns that You will use to Represent a Tree Structure..... Do You Have any Idea of how many Rows and Columns this Matrix will Contain..... This is a very Powerful Way of Ordering Your Information and this Matrix Structure lends itself to many Mathematical manipulations, Algorithms, and Computerization.....

Cheers

 

[Kevin Shields]

I originally was mentored in the Jacobs, Hardy, Haney system of plus - minus. It has it's merits, mainly by identifying what the player's club needs to do to improve his swing bottom to get better flight. HOW the player goes about getting there is what sets Brian apart from them. Believe me, I've seen both in person enough to know they couldn't sniff his abilities to adjust to different patterns.

 

[jeffy]

What's the deal Jeffy? I thought this site was to discuss and debate BRIAN'S ideas. Are you just here to attack? Pretty transparent if you ask me. YOU HAVE AN AGENDA. Your agenda is allegiance to a one size fits all system. Those systems WORK, but only for the people who are suited to them.

A little news for you. There aren't that many new ideas. What there are are new ways to organize the information, and new ways to communicate it.

Go jump in a lake. There has been nothing "attacking" about any of my posts. I didn't start this thread which revolves around B&P. And I didn't bring up Hardy; Brian did.

 

[jeffy]

Jeff Mann-

Here is a good face-on driver sequence of Weir you might want to analyze for us re: location of swing centers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyZR30JKPTo

 

[jimmyt]

Just for the record, Brian never brought up Hardy. So Jeffy, your over here stirring up just as much as you did on another website. You have just as many posts as well, free time on your hands.

 

[jeffy]

Just for the record, Brian never brought up Hardy. So Jeffy, your over here stirring up just as much as you did on another website. You have just as many posts as well, free time on your hands.

Post #19, by Brian Manzella:

"Now, Jeffy is a big fan of a teacher who teaches most to have a very centered backswing pivot, so—of course—his preference is toward centered."

Since Brian and I know each other pretty well, I presumed he meant Jim Hardy. Who do you think he meant?

I replied that I was insulted by the suggestion that I thought a centered spine was for everyone, and said that I believe that centered works well for some, not others. No mention of any other teacher or theory.

He responded with:

"The stuff you are talking about is one man's ideas, but they sure ain't mine."

Well, in fact, I believe our views are very similar. And, since this was the second time he brought up Hardy unsolicited, I suggested that he and Hardy weren't that far apart. However, he didn't want any of that, and explained why he thought they were different, and, after reading why, I agreed. Now he is saying that they are similar. I give up. I don't see how any of these exchanges can be viewed as attempts to stir up trouble by me.

 

[JeffM]

Jeffy- Here is the requested swing analysis of Weirs' driver swing

I was a little amazed when I looked at his driver swing. There is NOTHING suggesting the influence of B/P's S&T swing style in his driver swing.

I placed green dots over the upper and lower swing center and joined those dots with a green line, which roughly represents his spinal tilt. The yellow arrow through the center of his head traces his head movements from a vertical perspective.

Image 1 - At address - he has slight spinal tilt away from the target, and his head is minimally behind the center of his stance.

Image 2 - End-Backswing position - I am amazed how much he moves his head back, which increases the tilt of his spine/upper torso away from the target. This is the opposite of what B/P teach. Note that he also keeps his rear knee slightly flexed and doesn't allow the rear leg to straighten as B/P recommend.

Image 2 - Near-impact - His head even moves further back and slightly downwards, which causes an increased degree of spinal tilt away from the target (secondary axis tilt). Also, interestingly, the outer border of his front pelvis is NOT outside the front foot.

There is NOTHING in his swing that suggests the influence of B/P's teaching philosophy. In fact, he has a standard rightwards-centered backswing (actually reverse-rightwards-centered backswing because he is a left-hander) - except that he may have a greater than normal degree of upper torso tilt away from the target than usual at the end-backswing position. I imagine that his swing would fit in well with Brian's teaching.

Jeff.

 

[jeffy]

So, it would appear that Player and Johnny Miller are smoking crack again...

OK, who's surprised? Show of hands...