Late Night Ramblings...NHA, soft draw, etc.

[birdie_man]

I started writing this in another thread but it turned into a long ordeal that didn't end up having enough to do with the original topic. It is almost 3:00 AM though and I hung out with Mr. Morgan (though his closest friends call him Captain) tonight so who knows.



I may not even produce an actual, pointed question- though I will try. (maybe tomorrow)

Here are my ramblings:

NHA (but with less hip slide, granted) has not been producing fades for me lately. But my irons probably are too upright also.

Then again though it's not fading with any of my other clubs either really. (though they may be too upright also) Not fading unless I really get under the sweetspot in the backswing (but then I may shank it).......and/or I really bend my left wrist at address.

I am starting to think I may just be a drawer. Even with a close-to-NHA-swing.

I have tried really hard to hit a fade. I want to work it both ways. I have tried everything. Consistency with fade not good enough thusfar.

I realized just today though--or at least it has become more of a reality--I can probably play a draw stock and then just open the face and hit it to fade. It will take getting used to though.....but testing first anyway.

Or......

I will bend my left wrist at address with longer clubs and get under the sweetspot more in my backswing. For a HIGH fade. Great with driver but does not really work with short clubs cause...........too much loft and not enough compression.

And does not really work with FATS cause............keeps face too open. (shank danger included ahhhhhhhhhhh!)

I may have to try some drivers off the deck tomorrow and see what happens...

...

And.....as is the rage these days (not really a knock though ) I have also been trying more of a soft draw pattern actually.........but with my neutral grip and arched left wrist cause it doesn't really work otherwise. It basically amounts to a more inside armswing and less float loading and FATS than my effort at NHA-ish.

Was doing something like this late last year. It was the hardest I had hit it in a long time. I once again got the "driver is gonna break" feeling.

(and I did break one actually )

Eventually it stopped working well enough but it's good to revisit patterns as things evolve. (which is all that happened)

Not bad so far though the second time around. The draws are soft and hitting it high and tilting seems easier than with NHA. The contact seems less crisp however. (esp. when not using extra FATS) More testing needed...!

 

[birdie_man]

Ah yes......

Here is the pointed question(s)......

1. Brian.....do you get people who cannot fade it much or well enough without:

-opening the face at address
-getting under the sweetspot maybe more than they should
-drastic equipment changes...lie angles, etc.
-ETC.

?

2. How many of you cannot fade it very well with the off the rack (usually fairly upright) lie angles these days?

My 5 iron is 61 degrees...which is more or less so-called "standard" I do believe. (as of July 9th- year 2008)

My driver is a r5 TP Tour. I'm not sure of the lie but it seems pretty "standard" and most TM's are pretty upright anyway.

 

[multi]

Never thought about it before, that a misfitting club can give you problems with a ball flight. Maybe my clubs are too flat (my 5 iron lie is 59* std Mizuno) and I have problems drawing the ball. Though I have an easier time my Titleist 585H 19* which has a lie of 58* so maybe you're on the something? Though lie of the driver shouldn't come into play too much I would assume since it doesn't really hit the ground.

I'm curious to see the answers to the questions from the other side of the matrix too .

 

[pecky987]

Never thought about it before, that a misfitting club can give you problems with a ball flight. Maybe my clubs are too flat (my 5 iron lie is 59* std Mizuno) and I have problems drawing the ball. Though I have an easier time my Titleist 585H 19* which has a lie of 58* so maybe you're on the something? Though lie of the driver shouldn't come into play too much I would assume since it doesn't really hit the ground.

I'm curious to see the answers to the questions from the other side of the matrix too .

unfortunately there is no industry standard with regards to lie angles. mizuno are known for being flatter than other manufacturers. thats probly why my MP-57's were fitted for 2 degrees upright.

so a 'standard' lie for a 7 iron for taylormade may well not be the same as the 'standard' lie for titleist

 

[suns11111]

unfortunately there is no industry standard with regards to lie angles. mizuno are known for being flatter than other manufacturers. thats probly why my MP-57's were fitted for 2 degrees upright.

so a 'standard' lie for a 7 iron for taylormade may well not be the same as the 'standard' lie for titleist

Time for more goverment regulation

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

birdie needs to save his pennies and go see the man one day. Last video I saw of you I'm pretty sure it was a pretty flat shoulder turn combined with an out to right field swing. If you do NHA right and add a steeper shoulder turn you will fade the ball.

 

[birdie_man]

My last video is in my signiture Jimmy. It is Rotated.

Here I just uploaded my very latest though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEtOs6ofM40&fmt=18

No further talking from me though. Hopefully my swing tells the story.

Wish I knew how to cut video BTW.....so you didn't have to keep watching me do my wiggle waggle over the ball. (YouTube does not scroll well ughhhh...) Plus the quality took a hit.

And I do need to see Brian...................been on this site pretty well everyday for 4 freakin years.

 

[pecky987]

arch in the left wrist makes fades harder. of course you know that

looks like a hold exit and a high finish but not much of a fade finish swivel. in SD brian talks about how there has been a trend in 'fade finishes' where the clubhead is higher then the grip end a la zach johnson. that type of move would be good to play a draw

 

[birdie_man]

Hey pecky but Trevino faded it nice.

I know what you mean though.........and believe it or not I am not doing a full-out "Twistaway" move in the backswing. I hit hooks like that.

In my practice swing.........my left wrist swivels and stays flat as can be. 100% orthodox. You could put it in a golf magazine.

Then I step up the ball and make the swing..........low and behold............deranged archedness. (but I am lost without it) There is still early swivel..........just with "extra" arching thrown in.

With my current neutral grip...........if I do it any other way I seem to be way too open and under the sweetspot. Prone to big, uncompressed, right shots........shanks...................and zero distance control with my short clubs. Too much loft makes for a "fluffed" impact. ("polishing it" as per Manzella)

With a stronger grip it is still not great but of course better. But still shank prone and just generally not very accurate. I honestly haven't practiced it much lately though.

I'm gonna revisit a full roll with it and see how it works.

 

[dashfan87]

wow... after looking at it, I am amazed at how arched your left wrist is...
that is so the opposite of what is natural for me.... I had to fight with myself and still do sometimes, to keep my left (right for me) wrist from cupping...
kind of puts the meaning in "different strokes for different folks" doesn't it... hehe

 

[self-mastery]

How the **** do you hit a fade with consistency??? Someone answer that for me, and I will send Adriana Lima to your house. I'm a player that went from fairway ground burner, slicer, to drawer. I can hit the ball straight, I can draw it all night long, but I can't move it to the right. What gives? I can't even explain how to hit a draw, it has been flying that way for the last 5 years, and refuses to move right. I've had one round where I was able to fade the ball with consistency... In practice, I've been able to hit a mid trajectory fade, but it quickly fades away... ADHD golfer.

Birdie, Captain isn't a good friend...

 

[puttmad]

I realized just today though--or at least it has become more of a reality--I can probably play a draw stock and then just open the face and hit it to fade. It will take getting used to though.....but testing first anyway.

Wow birdie, you stayed up till 3 AM to figure that out.....

As for Capt. Morgan. I can see why you're rambling (disgusting stuff...try some Woods or Navy Neaters instead..)

 

[puttmad]

....

How the **** do you hit a fade with consistency??? Someone answer that for me, and I will send Adriana Lima to your house. I'm a player that went from fairway ground burner, slicer, to drawer. I can hit the ball straight, I can draw it all night long, but I can't move it to the right. What gives? I can't even explain how to hit a draw, it has been flying that way for the last 5 years, and refuses to move right. I've had one round where I was able to fade the ball with consistency... In practice, I've been able to hit a mid trajectory fade, but it quickly fades away... ADHD golfer.

Birdie, Captain isn't a good friend...

SM, try this,
1) Aim left (duh!..)
2) Put the ball slightly further forward in your stance
3) Open the clubface and RE-GRIP! ( also you can always try weakening your right hand grip ONLY (palm will face left of target)

Don't hold back..hit the damn thing with your normal swing....

The setup and grip should take care of everything for you, no need to hold off and all that stuff...

Now you may find you get big slices, simply progressively adjust the clubface until it turns into a nice fade, then store to memory....

 

[birdie_man]

I know I know! (puttmad) I have never been comfy with it though. I am gonna have to try it seems though. It's a shot I have been prone to shanking actually. (like in Over And Out)

The Captain is a good guy if you hang with him in moderation. (Surgeon General's Warning)

 

[dashfan87]

How the **** do you hit a fade with consistency??? Someone answer that for me, and I will send Adriana Lima to your house. I'm a player that went from fairway ground burner, slicer, to drawer. I can hit the ball straight, I can draw it all night long, but I can't move it to the right. What gives? I can't even explain how to hit a draw, it has been flying that way for the last 5 years, and refuses to move right. I've had one round where I was able to fade the ball with consistency... In practice, I've been able to hit a mid trajectory fade, but it quickly fades away... ADHD golfer.

Birdie, Captain isn't a good friend...

Psh, I can hit fades all flipping day.... its those darn draws I have the trouble with... actually I don't like to draw the ball, I cant control the feeling of a draw like I can with the fade. There was a point in my young golfing career, where I was starting to hit consistent draws (with irons and fairway woods never driver, always been hitting fades with driver), and I hated it... I just couldn't get the feel down, it felt so unnatural the ball curving to the right like that... so I started hitting fades avian with everything... I wish I had kept and remembered how to hit those draws though, because I cant hit them today for the life of me... however SD1 is helping with that...

 

[birdie_man]

I don't know what I have been talking about. Why the heck am I still trying to force a fade swing to the same old set of irons. Nutz.

I've been hitting it solid and with a soft draw when using that NHA-ish swing. (the new YouTube) So that's good. If that holds up (I believe it will) I think I just need to adjust the dang lie and/or face angles if I want more of a fade. Plus varying amount of FATS. Plus address stuff.

Flatter shoulder turn and/or full roll for anything more than (and including) a soft draw. And sometimes for height. Unlike my NHAish, I hardly ever "double-cross" it with this swing.

I am putting this into motion starting tomorrow. (pending good weather) I shall see how it goes.....and then chronicle my findings in this fine forum.

!!!

No Morgan needed. Just water. (maybe a Coke)

-PUAL

 

[puttmad]

-PUAL

You boviously dot as nrunk as some teeple pink.....

 

[birdie_man]

Haha...! No I wasn't at all there. Just that night to celebrate a friend getting back in town.

I did only have 2 hours of sleep though.....I typed PUAL by accident and left it there for Style Points........!



The plan remains. No more posting on booze.

 

[vjcapron]

Birdie,

If you would just actually DO the NHA pattern, you would get fades. You are missing two key components of that pattern. There's a disconnect between what you are actually doing and what you are attempting to do.

1.) You are missing the "Left of the Wall" component
2.) You are missing the "Left thumb UNDER the shaft" at the top.

I would describe your latest swing as "Up the Wall, Down the Wall, and Back Up the Wall". You really need to get that club swinging left of the wall immediately after impact. If you spent 2 minutes on a waist-high plane board, you would get the feel for how far left that clubhead needs to swing.

Get that left thumb under the shaft. Your argument about Lee Trevino hitting fades from a bowed left wrist doesn't hold up because:

1.) Trevino aimed 40 yards left of target and hit block fades
2.) Trevino's forearms were as big as my thighs

NHA is a straight-fade or slight pull-fade pattern. Think more Colin Montgomerie and less Lee Trevino. It's a pattern that works if you match all the components. You are using an "incompatible variation" with that bowed left wrist and square setup.

That bowed left wrist is actually hindering your natural instincts to do the "Left of the Wall" move after impact. If you'd get the left thumb under the shaft at the top, the clubface would be more open. You will probably flare your first few shots way out to the right - off the planet kind of right - but if you stuck with that position at the top, you will instinctively start swinging more left after impact and you just might get NHA to work for you.

 

[pecky987]

Birdie,

If you would just actually DO the NHA pattern, you would get fades. You are missing two key components of that pattern. There's a disconnect between what you are actually doing and what you are attempting to do.

1.) You are missing the "Left of the Wall" component
2.) You are missing the "Left thumb UNDER the shaft" at the top.

I would describe your latest swing as "Up the Wall, Down the Wall, and Back Up the Wall". You really need to get that club swinging left of the wall immediately after impact. If you spent 2 minutes on a waist-high plane board, you would get the feel for how far left that clubhead needs to swing.

Get that left thumb under the shaft. Your argument about Lee Trevino hitting fades from a bowed left wrist doesn't hold up because:

1.) Trevino aimed 40 yards left of target and hit block fades
2.) Trevino's forearms were as big as my thighs

NHA is a straight-fade or slight pull-fade pattern. Think more Colin Montgomerie and less Lee Trevino. It's a pattern that works if you match all the components. You are using an "incompatible variation" with that bowed left wrist and square setup.

That bowed left wrist is actually hindering your natural instincts to do the "Left of the Wall" move after impact. If you'd get the left thumb under the shaft at the top, the clubface would be more open. You will probably flare your first few shots way out to the right - off the planet kind of right - but if you stuck with that position at the top, you will instinctively start swinging more left after impact and you just might get NHA to work for you.

wonderful assesment