Launch Angle Control

[cmow]

Been reading here for a while – first post…..

Any opinions on what are the largest factors in trajectory control?

Path
Axis tilt/body center of gravity
Shaft lean
Angle of Descent/lowpoint location

I know the ball doesn’t care – it has to be the loft angle of the club at impact, but I’m after the reason that the club has a certain loft, if that makes sense.

Reason I’m asking is that I’m an underplane flipper who hits the ball pretty high. Thought I’ve read someplace that if you are underplane that you are adding loft. I’ve always tried to bring my ballflight down - wondering if just a path change will tend to do it, or if the effect will be negligible. Or if the underplane adds loft is just a myth ….

Can’t wait till next spring to try to go up the wall and follow the yellow brick road ….

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

spin

 

[cmow]

Wrong term - maybe launch angle....

I agree that spin would play a large determinate in the trajectory. But for me I know I am a low spin player - it's been a couple years, but I know my driver spin was right around 2000 rpm. So I don't think my high ballflight is due to ballooning because of spin.

Maybe a more accurate way to phrase my question is what factors have the largest effect on launch angle of the ball?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

With the driver, 3 main things have an effect on launch angle in this order imo:

1) Loft
2) Angle of attack
3) COG of the driver head

 

[cmow]

And one step deeper ....

We are in total agreement that loft at impact is the major determinant in the launch angle. Maybe I didn't phrase what I am asking the best, but what components of the swing contribute the most to changing the loft at impact - kind of my list in the first post.

I'm actually most wondering about my irons. Anecdotally here is what I see... I get on a 140 -145 yard par 3, I'm deciding to hit a hard 9 or easy 8. I launch a high floater the right distance with my underplane path. I'm playing with your normal 15 handicapper who is OTT - he typically has a PW in his hands and if he hits it, it is the right distance. Conversely push it up to 180 yards, I'm hitting a 5 or 6 and he's hitting a hybrid or 3 wood, so I don't think it is swing speed related, I'm also by him by 50-60 yds on the drive. He must have the club delofted to hit the short irons that far.

The obvious difference between these two swings is path related, that's why I'm asking if path really has that big of a role....

Wasn't there a Trackman guy who joined the forum a few months ago ...

 

[twitch127]

Wasn't there a Trackman guy who joined the forum a few months ago ...
Today 12:56 PM

Yeah and according to Trackman's newsletter it would be;
-Attack Angle
- Delivery path of clubhead
- Clubhead Speed

 

[Notorious B.E.N.]

-Attack Angle
- Delivery path of clubhead
- Clubhead Speed

What single one of these is the biggest factor in hitting low trajectory drives?

 

[twitch127]

What single one of these is the biggest factor in hitting low trajectory drives?

Attack Angle - with out question

If you hit driver on a low trajectory you will have a "negative" attack angle - obvioulsy this negative attack angle can be related to other factors ie ball position, delta from impact point to low point, clubhead path, plane line, plane angle, characteristcis of driver you are using etc...
Long drivers on tour have a positive attack angle (upto +5-6 degrees) see Angel Cabrera, Bubba Watson,

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Attack Angle - with out question

If you hit driver on a low trajectory you will have a "negative" attack angle - obvioulsy this negative attack angle can be related to other factors ie ball position, delta from impact point to low point, clubhead path, plane line, plane angle, characteristcis of driver you are using etc...
Long drivers on tour have a positive attack angle (upto +5-6 degrees) see Angel Cabrera, Bubba Watson,

Negatvie angle of attacks create very high spin rates and ultimately high ball flight due to ballooning even though the original launch angle was low. So no, negative angle of attack isn't your answer to "low flyn'" drives

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The obvious difference between these two swings is path related, that's why I'm asking if path really has that big of a role....

Wasn't there a Trackman guy who joined the forum a few months ago ...

Yes path plays a role in actualy loft at impact; however that effect gets greater as the loft on the head DECREASES. For instance, the path of an OTT hacker will probably be more outside in on the driver than it will be on a wedge thus making his 4 iron into say an 6 iron versus turning maybe a 9 iron into a PW. REason being is that it's easier to hit the ball straighter with a wedge due to the higher loft = more backspin = less deviation in curvature.

Also, you don't know what lofts he has on his irons either FWIW, most GI irons these days have PW lofts that are my 9 iron lofts

Hope that helps

 

[mjstrong]

Negatvie angle of attacks create very high spin rates and ultimately high ball flight due to ballooning even though the original launch angle was low. So no, negative angle of attack isn't your answer to "low flyn'" drives

Actually, interestingly enough, the Trackman website has found that attack angle only has a very small effect on spin rate:

"Are you saying that hitting down on the ball has no impact on the spin rate? That sounds very surprising…

Yes, actually you do not change the spin rate by hitting more down or up on the ball with the same club, assuming that the ball is impacted on the same spot on the face. Simplified slightly, the correlations are: Attack angle changes the launch angle, with club loft, including shaft flex, changing the spin rate."
Found at: TrackMan™ Newsletter January 2008

I know it's not quite this simple, but it was very interesting to see them differentiate between Attack Angle, and Spin Loft, which they define as the angle between the club's orientation loft and the attack angle.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I am no trackman engineer expert and maybe i am misinterpreting the results BUT i have never seen anyone on a monitor with a negative angle of attack not overspin the ball with a driver.

 

[jmessner]

I am no trackman engineer expert and maybe i am misinterpreting the results BUT i have never seen anyone on a monitor with a negative angle of attack not overspin the ball with a driver.

Jim- Terminology check. By "negative angle of attack" do you mean the clubhead is moving downward at impact or that the shaft is leaning forward (reducing effective loft)? I assume the former but just checking.

If both exist in a swing, and they don't always exist together, then I would guess these folks need very high loft drivers to get a decent launch angle thus creating high spin rates. I'd like to hear more details on your experience with this.

Jay

 

[twitch127]

Negatvie angle of attacks create very high spin rates and ultimately high ball flight due to ballooning even though the original launch angle was low. So no, negative angle of attack isn't your answer to "low flyn'" drives

You might want to do a bit more research before coming out with these statements. Read the above article from the INVENTOR of Trackman and you might learn something about launch parameters.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You might want to do a bit more research before coming out with these statements. Read the above article from the INVENTOR of Trackman and you might learn something about launch parameters.

I already addressed this, i have never seen a person on a trackman, a vector, or a zelocity machine with with a negative angle of attack with a decent clubface orientation not overspin a driver.

I modify their setup slightly to get their angle of attack eithe neutral or positive and the spin rates come down. Why that is, i don't know. THEN we fit them for a particular driver head and shaft.

 

[Guitar Hero]

TrackMan is simply the best for learning many aspects of the golf swing. I use it when I design new products and instruction. I also use similar technology with an About Golf Labs Simulator and 3-D CAD software. I have seen many golfers improve their swings fast and easy using this technology. The price is out of range for most golfers to buy this technology but I have found that the P3Pro swing software with a few tweaks and a video camera with many frames per second is a less expensive alternative and will work fine. If you are really looking to improve your swing you need to have the real data and an instructor who understands how to teach it. Brian is one of the few who can do this. Without your real swing data it is just like pissing into the wind and you are guessing. Start using this technology and not only will you improve but you will see why most top golf instructors just don’t get it and never will. Seeing is believing.

Rock On!!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Let me clarify that i am not challenging the trackman data, i'm simply telling my experience. I would love to hear in my fitting situations what is really happening.

 

[twitch127]

Man, What kind of operation do you have Guitar Hero it sounds state-of-the-art. Out of interest how much is an about Golf Sim with 3-D CAD software.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Man, What kind of operation do you have Guitar Hero it sounds state-of-the-art. Out of interest how much is an about Golf Sim with 3-D CAD software.

I am well connected in the golf world. I can’t say much more than that on this forum. I can say in the last 3 years my eyes have opened wide.

 

[mjstrong]

Let me clarify that i am not challenging the trackman data, i'm simply telling my experience. I would love to hear in my fitting situations what is really happening.

I am sure that it (the negative attack angle and high spin rates) is a simple matter of correlation as opposed to causation. I'm sure somebody will be able to explain it much better than I can.