Law of the Flail

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by Archie Swivel

Mandrin,

Isn't 'loading' simply the bend in the shaft and the cocking of the left wrist created by a change in direction at the top of the backswing and isn't the point to not let the bent shaft and cocked left wrist 'spring back' until impact?

Also, what did you think about my question of whether the bent right wrist seeks an 'in line' condition at the ball?

Archie, we are already far away from the issue at hand in this thread - flail. However I will briefly respond to your question.

Any way you start the club form the top there will always be initially a torque on the shaft trying to bend the shaft towards the right shoulder shoulder. If you use a dynamic change of direction, to perhaps deliberately exploit the recoil of the club, this torque will be substantially greater.

To be able to use the potential energy associated with the initial bending of the shaft it has to act as an oscillatory system. This is the case when the shaft is clamped into a vice. However in a golf swing this is not the case. Hence, unleashing the potential energy at impact due to bending at the top is not feasible.

quote:Wouldn't the frozen bent right wrist inhibit the seeking out of the in line condition? Sometimes in my effort not to flip and maintain a frozen bent right wrist I feel that I am overriding CF. Make sense?

If you truly develop a reasonable clubhead speed through the impact zone you can’t prevent the release of the club. Mark Evershed (The Golf Solution) is teaching this idea of maintaining a bent trail wrist but has to admit that he himself can only do for a short iron. There are many ways to skin a cat, equally for swinging a golf club. Nevertheless, an essential requirement is, for whatever you try to accomplish, to always strive simultaneously to get your hands to impact before the clubhead. Centrifugal force takes care of the rest.

 

[Rob2197]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by Archie Swivel

Mandrin,

Isn't 'loading' simply the bend in the shaft and the cocking of the left wrist created by a change in direction at the top of the backswing and isn't the point to not let the bent shaft and cocked left wrist 'spring back' until impact?

Also, what did you think about my question of whether the bent right wrist seeks an 'in line' condition at the ball?

Archie, we are already far away from the issue at hand in this thread - flail. However I will briefly respond to your question.

Any way you start the club form the top there will always be initially a torque on the shaft trying to bend the shaft towards the right shoulder shoulder. If you use a dynamic change of direction, to perhaps deliberately exploit the recoil of the club, this torque will be substantially greater.

To be able to use the potential energy associated with the initial bending of the shaft it has to act as an oscillatory system. This is the case when the shaft is clamped into a vice. However in a golf swing this is not the case. Hence, unleashing the potential energy at impact due to bending at the top is not feasible.

quote:Wouldn't the frozen bent right wrist inhibit the seeking out of the in line condition? Sometimes in my effort not to flip and maintain a frozen bent right wrist I feel that I am overriding CF. Make sense?

If you truly develop a reasonable clubhead speed through the impact zone you can’t prevent the release of the club. Mark Evershed (The Golf Solution) is teaching this idea of maintaining a bent trail wrist but has to admit that he himself can only do for a short iron. There are many ways to skin a cat, equally for swinging a golf club. Nevertheless, an essential requirement is, for whatever you try to accomplish, to always strive simultaneously to get your hands to impact before the clubhead. Centrifugal force takes care of the rest.

I can see this point. The bending of the shaft is unable actually provide much force at impact because the only way it could is if it snapped back at impact and the only way for that bent shaft to become unbent is deceleration, and that is the last thing anyone wants. However, I do believe that one should strive to bend the shaft, keep trail hand bent and drive through impact because it will encourage one to swing better. If you practice getting the shaft to bend you'll eventually discover that the best way to do this is pretty good acceleration and proper placement of pp#3. Similiarly, if you practice having a bent right wrist at impact it will encourage a non-flipping motion.

 

[MizunoJoe]

Rob wrote, "I can see this point. The bending of the shaft is unable actually provide much force at impact".

Yes, but that's not the point - the advantage of loading the shaft is that a stressed shaft helps resist clubhead deceleration through the impact interval. HK knew it, machiners know it, but mandrin doesn't know it.

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by Rob2197

I can see this point. The bending of the shaft is unable actually provide much force at impact because the only way it could is if it snapped back at impact and the only way for that bent shaft to become unbent is deceleration, and that is the last thing anyone wants. However, I do believe that one should strive to bend the shaft, keep trail hand bent and drive through impact because it will encourage one to swing better. If you practice getting the shaft to bend you'll eventually discover that the best way to do this is pretty good acceleration and proper placement of pp#3. Similiarly, if you practice having a bent right wrist at impact it will encourage a non-flipping motion.

Rob2197, I agree. Cultivating the ‘feeling’ of keeping a bent shaft, when properly swinging or hitting, is an indication that you are continuously accelerating the club and therefore quite likely reaching impact with your hands in advance of the clubhead.

Btw, the noticeable forward bending of the shafts at impact is not due to any snapping or forward kicking. It is simply due to the action of the centrifugal force.

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

As for the concept of ‘loading’ the shaft to be unleashed at impact, that is behind us, but still probably part of the TGM culture, with their devotees, looking backwards

quote: Those three phases are, in fact, scientific laws

- Still looking for references for these three scientific LAWS ?

Yes, it is behind us in forum archives, where fenring exposed your plagiarism in which you incorrectly copied some of the constants in the equations, which rendered the results suspect. [:I]

However, rather than dwell on that, why not submit your original research on the myth of shaft loading to a recognized organization, such as 'Proceedings of the World Scientific Congress of Golf' for review and publication? Then you could merely cite the article on this forum. []

As for HK's "The Law of the Flail", perhaps you could cite a published scientific empirical study in which one or more of the three phases failed.

MizunoJoe, you are really funny, babbling away about some fenring. I was expecting the usual refrain about sex and virgins, or that golf is not taught using mathematics, or to post my swing, etc, etc..

Interesting how you change quickly. From proudly announcing the existence of your three Laws and not being able to find them anywhere, you want me to cite now any reference specifically denying their existence. Rather sharp U-turn. I realize it is difficult for you once drawn away from citing Homer literally from the book You are truly slippery like an eel - however don’t change, that makes it even more fun. []

 

[Burner]

quote:Originally posted by Archie Swivel

So does a bent right wrist seek an "in line" condition at impact? And, if so, why do we use our forearm and hand muscles to disturb that by maintaining a frozen right wrist bend?

The bent right wrist will find its inline condition some time after low point has been passed and NOT before.

The connector between the handle and the swingle of the flail is the left wrist and this is kept in a flat condition through impact, and beyond, by the bent right wrist.

 

[Rob2197]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Rob wrote, "I can see this point. The bending of the shaft is unable actually provide much force at impact".

Yes, but that's not the point - the advantage of loading the shaft is that a stressed shaft helps resist clubhead deceleration through the impact interval. HK knew it, machiners know it, but mandrin doesn't know it.

I know, I think that's basically what I said in secntence 3 &4.

 

[Rob2197]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by Rob2197

I can see this point. The bending of the shaft is unable actually provide much force at impact because the only way it could is if it snapped back at impact and the only way for that bent shaft to become unbent is deceleration, and that is the last thing anyone wants. However, I do believe that one should strive to bend the shaft, keep trail hand bent and drive through impact because it will encourage one to swing better. If you practice getting the shaft to bend you'll eventually discover that the best way to do this is pretty good acceleration and proper placement of pp#3. Similiarly, if you practice having a bent right wrist at impact it will encourage a non-flipping motion.

Rob2197, I agree. Cultivating the ‘feeling’ of keeping a bent shaft, when properly swinging or hitting, is an indication that you are continuously accelerating the club and therefore quite likely reaching impact with your hands in advance of the clubhead.

Btw, the noticeable forward bending of the shafts at impact is not due to any snapping or forward kicking. It is simply due to the action of the centrifugal force.

Correct, I'm not saying that the bend at impact is caused by snapping. I said that snapping at impact is the only way that the bent shaft could actually provide force purely by it being bent and that it was impossible to do that without the clubhead decelerating.

 

[TGMfan]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

Nevertheless, an essential requirement is, for whatever you try to accomplish, to always strive simultaneously to get your hands to impact before the clubhead. Centrifugal force takes care of the rest.

Mandrin,

I'm sorry to focus on this one point, but the rest of the points you're arguing don't interest me. Any reasonably proficient Hitter, though, knows that it's quite possible to get his hands to Impact before the clubhead without letting Centrifugal Force release anything. That, after all, is the function of his elbow.

 

[mandrin]

“Any reasonably proficient Hitter, though, knows that it's quite possible to get his hands to Impact before the clubhead without letting Centrifugal Force release anything”.

TGMfan, I am not really inspired by your argument very much either since the human being who can generate high clubhead speed whilst getting his hands to impact position without releasing in any way the club, does not exist yet. []

For the same clubhead impact speed there is an identical centrifugal force, notwithstanding ‘hitting’ or ‘swinging’. There is over 100lbs of centrifugal force in action through impact during a descent quality golf swing.

I hope that you have heard of the concept ‘feel versus real’. Just think of your master Yoda. Nobody can see the difference in his swing when either swinging or hitting. Yet Yoda will describe those two swings in totally different terms.

Do you really seriously believe that one can fight against centrifugal force in a golf swing and still obtain high club head speeds? Is TGM really making people believe these things just because Homer suggests these things through a few cryptic sentences? [?]

 

[Brian Manzella]

Mandrin,

In one sentence, what are you trying to say?

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Mandrin,

In one sentence, what are you trying to say?

Brian, something to contemplate:

TGM, really the alpha and omega of golf, nothing to add, improve or discuss, for ever ?

 

[Brian Manzella]

You must think you are talking to a litle green man, mandrin.

This here is The Italian Stallion, and I'll listen.

and your one sentence thesis is???

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

You must think you are talking to a litle green man, mandrin.

This here is The Italian Stallion, and I'll listen.

and your one sentence thesis is???

TGM, nice unified body of instruction, including swinging and hitting, extensive useful vocabulary, but needs fresh air and simplification to appeal to a larger audience. Science elements weaker part of TGM.

 

[Brian Manzella]

That's my job Mandrin, thanks for reminding me.

Surely, even you know I do this better than the others—you know—the ones that would yank you off in 2 seconds flat?

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

That's my job Mandrin, thanks for reminding me.

Surely, even you know I do this better than the others—you know—the ones that would yank you off in 2 seconds flat?

I don’t mind people who are gritty and do their own thing.

 

[Rob2197]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by brianman

You must think you are talking to a litle green man, mandrin.

This here is The Italian Stallion, and I'll listen.

and your one sentence thesis is???

TGM, nice unified body of instruction, including swinging and hitting, extensive useful vocabulary, but needs fresh air and simplification to appeal to a larger audience. Science elements weaker part of TGM.

This is similiar to what I believe. People on other non-TGM forums will always blast you when they find out you are a TGM person.

They say "you guys can apply TGM to anybody's swing, you're always saying that this pro's swing is a classic example of this or that" I'm thinking of course we do. TGM to me is not a "way of swinging" as much as "a way of communicating and teaching". This helps some who are able to understand the reading easily because they are able to teach themselves. And helps those who can't because if their instructor understands it and can communicate it to them, then they don't have to. I think most people would fall in the middle. I understood some of it through reading, a lot more through videos and forums, but sometime in the future (I'm guessing about July or August), I'm going to come to the point that I'm not going to get any better without an AI pointing out some of the finer points.

Of course, one of the best teaching methods is going to indicate some of the vital elements required to make a good swing (the imperatives) and a bunch of non-vital elements that most good players use and that will probably work for most people.

I don't know about the science elements being one of the weaker points. I do think that most of the science elements are simplistic and no great revelation (compression, clubhead paths causing slice or draw, etc.). And of course, with any science there is going to be great and adamant disagreement on some items.

 

[birdie_man]

quoteo you really seriously believe that one can fight against centrifugal force in a golf swing and still obtain high club head speeds? Is TGM really making people believe these things just because Homer suggests these things through a few cryptic sentences?

What are you talking about here?

Fighting CF?

...

With maintaining a Bent Right Wrist you mean?

 

[Archie Swivel]

Perhaps in my efforts to maintain lag and strike the ball with my hands in front of the ball with a forward leaning shaft, I have been faking it. I think that sometimes I freeze my right wrist muscles to the max and freeze my left wrist cock and angle my hands forward so that on a still frame shot it appears that I have lag with forward lean. But when I parse through the bickering back and forth on this thread and get into substance of the issue, I think I realize that I need to let lag pressure keep my left wrist cocked and have my flying wedges flying fast enough to get passed the ball before my clubhead gets there.

Do any of you guys think that you may be 'faking it' like I described?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Arch...you're just thinking too much.

Take it to the top with a flat left wrist and a bent right wrist. Now just get your hands in front of the ball and let everything else follow and "happen."