Learning Feel from Mechanics

[Zztop]

cal7426 is correct. Walking "is" instinctive for humans. It is a natural survival mechanism that is present in the newborn (see "Stepping Reflex"). However, it takes on average about 13 1/2 months before the newborn/infant is "physically mature" enough to walk.

The walking or stepping reflex is present at birth; though infants this young can not support their own weight, when the soles of their feet touch a flat surface they will attempt to 'walk' by placing one foot in front of the other. This reflex disappears at 6weeks as an automatic response and reappears as a voluntary behavior at around eight months to a year old. It's a reflex because it needs a stimulus.

Nowhere does this say that it is an instinct for survival, other reflexes are PRIMITIVE FOR SURVIVAL. It say's this is a reflex and disappears at 6weeks and reappears as a voluntary behaviour not an instinct. Instincts don't disappear and reappear as voluntary behaviour. Instincts are survival response, automatic, involuntary. VOLUNTARY IMPLIES YOU HAVE A CHOICE , INVOLUNTARY MEANS YOU HAVE NO CHOICE! Read the whole article. Anyways it's getting a wee bit off topic, ya think?

Like Scarface said: Even when I lie, I tell the truth.

 

[jimmydean]

mechanics and feel

People learn in several ways. Observation and feel are two ways. In my teaching I have found that one of the most important things a teacher can do is observe and when the student "gets it" correctly, the teacher asks "how did that feel to you?'' It can feel differently to one person versus another, but what is important is how the proper mechanics feel to the individual student. Perception is one thing, reality is another. Just my two cents worth!
jimmy

 

[cal7426]

Zztop, the final phrase of your post was sarcastic, but it was based on your analogy (so called) which you presented as a truism. My point was that our capacity to learn to walk is not the same process as our capacity to learn to play golf, thus your analogy is not a given.

If we could learn to play golf in the same way we learned to walk we wouldn't need teachers or this forum.

Holeout, in your description of your lesson with Brian could it not be argued that although you were only learning the "feels" Brian was providing the mechanics. Thus you were learning feel from mechanics. The fact that you didn't know the mechanics is irrelevant.

 

[Zztop]

Zztop, the final phrase of your post was sarcastic, but it was based on your analogy (so called) which you presented as a truism. My point was that our capacity to learn to walk is not the same process as our capacity to learn to play golf, thus your analogy is not a given.

If we could learn to play golf in the same way we learned to walk we wouldn't need teachers or this forum.

Holeout, in your description of your lesson with Brian could it not be argued that although you were only learning the "feels" Brian was providing the mechanics. Thus you were learning feel from mechanics. The fact that you didn't know the mechanics is irrelevant.

Relax already, I said it was sarcasm, a joke, not meant to be a truism, although there is a little truth in there if you catch my drift, i'm just using my instinct's on that so i could be wrong... lol.

 

[Zztop]

People learn in several ways. Observation and feel are two ways. In my teaching I have found that one of the most important things a teacher can do is observe and when the student "gets it" correctly, the teacher asks "how did that feel to you?'' It can feel differently to one person versus another, but what is important is how the proper mechanics feel to the individual student. Perception is one thing, reality is another. Just my two cents worth!
jimmy

And a good two cents worth, right on the money so to speak!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Something to chew on...

When you learn the golf swing by yourself like I did, you are just trying to get the club on the ball and get the ball in the air.

Then, you come up with ways to get that job done—whether through experimentation, or through suggestion.

The first one I can remember was to "hit down on the ball" like my dad told me.

So, I learned to do it.

What did I learn to do?

Better hand path? More hip slide? Axis Tilt? Flatter Left Wrist?

Who knows?

I had a "thought process" and just did it.

Did I learn "feel from mechanics"?

I sure didn't know the specifics of it.

Mechanics –noun

1. The branch of physics that deals with the action of forces on bodies and with motion, comprised of kinetics, statics, and kinematics.
2. The theoretical and practical application of this science to machinery, mechanical appliances, etc.

The Popular "Golf" useage:

3. The precise elements of golf technique that can be explained by science or quasi-science.​

Or are mechanics ANY THOUGHT about "what to do"?

Hmmm....

 

[willgolfer]

The walking or stepping reflex is present at birth; though infants this young can not support their own weight, when the soles of their feet touch a flat surface they will attempt to 'walk' by placing one foot in front of the other. This reflex disappears at 6weeks as an automatic response and reappears as a voluntary behavior at around eight months to a year old. It's a reflex because it needs a stimulus.

Nowhere does this say that it is an instinct for survival, other reflexes are PRIMITIVE FOR SURVIVAL. It say's this is a reflex and disappears at 6weeks and reappears as a voluntary behaviour not an instinct. Instincts don't disappear and reappear as voluntary behaviour. Instincts are survival response, automatic, involuntary. VOLUNTARY IMPLIES YOU HAVE A CHOICE , INVOLUNTARY MEANS YOU HAVE NO CHOICE! Read the whole article. Anyways it's getting a wee bit off topic, ya think?

Like Scarface said: Even when I lie, I tell the truth.

Aha, and then there was this:

The stepping reflex serves to turn fetuses head down in the womb (early walking?). Later it will become intentional walking.

and

Through experimental manipulations, Thelen, et al. argue against the traditional view of the disappearing stepping reflex and show that alternating leg movements are only "masked" not disappeared.

look deeper next time...challenge the system!

and now back to our earlier programming.

 

[holeout]

When you learn the golf swing by yourself like I did, you are just trying to get the club on the ball and get the ball in the air.

Then, you come up with ways to get that job done—whether through experimentation, or through suggestion.

The first one I can remember was to "hit down on the ball" like my dad told me.

So, I learned to do it.

What did I learn to do?

Better hand path? More hip slide? Axis Tilt? Flatter Left Wrist?

Who knows?

I had a "thought process" and just did it.

Did I learn "feel from mechanics"?

I sure didn't know the specifics of it.

Mechanics –noun

1. The branch of physics that deals with the action of forces on bodies and with motion, comprised of kinetics, statics, and kinematics.
2. The theoretical and practical application of this science to machinery, mechanical appliances, etc.

The Popular "Golf" useage:

3. The precise elements of golf technique that can be explained by science or quasi-science.​

Or are mechanics ANY THOUGHT about "what to do"?

Hmmm....

You raise a good point Brian. I'm still thinking about this.

After a 76 today, though, I'm more interested in how to get myself to make better decisions and avoid lip-outs. Ugh.

 

[Zztop]

Aha, and then there was this:

The stepping reflex serves to turn fetuses head down in the womb (early walking?). Later it will become intentional walking.

and

Through experimental manipulations, Thelen, et al. argue against the traditional view of the disappearing stepping reflex and show that alternating leg movements are only "masked" not disappeared.

look deeper next time...challenge the system!

and now back to our earlier programming.

Give it up already, your going on and on about a joke i made and trying to turn it into a big deal, your the one quoting an article about stepping reflex and when that one doesn't work your looking for one that does.

We can keep on quoting sources that bolster our side, like most experts on these subjects there are differing opinions, and this is way off topic.

You took a simple sarcastic joke and went off ,way off, like i said take a deep breath, count to ten and on with the show.

P.S.YOUR STILL WRONG....LOL....LOL... Intentional, means you make a choice with a purpose not the same as instinctual , which means inborn impulse,unconscious skill, involuntary impulse.

 

[willgolfer]

Give it up already, your going on and on about a joke i made and trying to turn it into a big deal, your the one quoting an article about stepping reflex and when that one doesn't work your looking for one that does.

We can keep on quoting sources that bolster our side, like most experts on these subjects there are differing opinions, and this is way off topic.

You took a simple sarcastic joke and went off ,way off, like i said take a deep breath, count to ten and on with the show.

P.S.YOUR STILL WRONG....LOL....LOL... Intentional, means you make a choice with a purpose not the same as instinctual , which means inborn impulse,unconscious skill, involuntary impulse.

Whoa, slow your roll there z-z-t-o-p. I merely responded to a comment you made without any previous knowledge of the :ahem: "sarcastic" joke you are referring to.

I like my argument better. There's some good research there.

10...9...8...7.....lol!

 

[Zztop]

Whoa, slow your roll there z-z-t-o-p. I merely responded to a comment you made without any previous knowledge of the :ahem: "sarcastic" joke you are referring to.

I like my argument better. There's some good research there.

10...9...8...7.....lol!

All in the spirit of a good debate! ZZTOP-1 willgolfer -0. Just kidding Always looking for credible knowledge or incredible knowledge and i like my argument even when i'm wrong i'm right. ... lol.

 

[Zztop]

When you learn the golf swing by yourself like I did, you are just trying to get the club on the ball and get the ball in the air.

Then, you come up with ways to get that job done—whether through experimentation, or through suggestion.

The first one I can remember was to "hit down on the ball" like my dad told me.

So, I learned to do it.

What did I learn to do?

Better hand path? More hip slide? Axis Tilt? Flatter Left Wrist?

Who knows?

I had a "thought process" and just did it.

Did I learn "feel from mechanics"?

I sure didn't know the specifics of it.

Mechanics –noun

1. The branch of physics that deals with the action of forces on bodies and with motion, comprised of kinetics, statics, and kinematics.
2. The theoretical and practical application of this science to machinery, mechanical appliances, etc.

The Popular "Golf" useage:

3. The precise elements of golf technique that can be explained by science or quasi-science.​

Or are mechanics ANY THOUGHT about "what to do"?

Hmmm....

I think that would be an idea. The application of that idea would contain any number of so called mechanics if you wanted to break it down that way.

There's so called mechanics in all the motions of the human body, but seldom do we focus our conscious attention on them. Like you said left to our own devices we will formulate idea's about how to do something, whether it's the right idea or the wrong idea, we will try it out.

The thing is ,if we like the results of our experimentation we must remember how we accomplished it, by memory, by feel ,but if we can't see ourselves swing the club how would we know any of the mechanics involved? I could throw a baseball, a football, kick someone in the a... I don't know all the mechanics involved, could care less.

Now not knowing the mechanics of these actions, doesn't mean i can't perform them and if i have good eye hand co-ordination, some athleticism, i could perform them at a high level. How did i do this? Hmmmm?

 

[Zztop]

Aha, and then there was this:

The stepping reflex serves to turn fetuses head down in the womb (early walking?). Later it will become intentional walking.

and

Through experimental manipulations, Thelen, et al. argue against the traditional view of the disappearing stepping reflex and show that alternating leg movements are only "masked" not disappeared.

look deeper next time...challenge the system!

and now back to our earlier programming.

Psychologists do recognize that humans do have biological predispositions or behaviors that are easy to learn due to biological wiring, for example walking and talking.[citation needed]

If these criteria are used in a rigorous scientific manner, application of the term "instinct" cannot be used in reference to human behavior.[citation needed] When terms, such as mothering, territoriality, eating, mating, and so on, are used to denote human behavior they are seen to not meet the criteria listed above. In comparison to animal behavior such as hibernation, migration, nest building, mating and so on that are clearly instinctual, no human behavior meets the necessary criteria. And even in regard to animals, in many cases if the correct learning is stopped from occurring these instinctual behaviors disappear, suggesting that they are potent, but limited, biological predispostions. In the final analysis, under this definition, there are no human instincts.

I took your advice and dug deeper and look what i found. See another article to refute your argument, like i said your experts versus my experts. And on and on we go ,where we end up no one knows... lol

 

[JonWil]

Psychologists do recognize that humans do have biological predispositions or behaviors that are easy to learn due to biological wiring, for example walking and talking.[citation needed]

If these criteria are used in a rigorous scientific manner, application of the term "instinct" cannot be used in reference to human behavior.[citation needed] When terms, such as mothering, territoriality, eating, mating, and so on, are used to denote human behavior they are seen to not meet the criteria listed above. In comparison to animal behavior such as hibernation, migration, nest building, mating and so on that are clearly instinctual, no human behavior meets the necessary criteria. And even in regard to animals, in many cases if the correct learning is stopped from occurring these instinctual behaviors disappear, suggesting that they are potent, but limited, biological predispostions. In the final analysis, under this definition, there are no human instincts.


I took your advice and dug deeper and look what i found. See another article to refute your argument, like i said your experts versus my experts. And on and on we go ,where we end up no one knows... lol

You have been in a hole for a while and appear to have reasoned that digging deeper is a smart response – But, are you ‘deep’ enough to contemplate that your latest argument exhibits an argument fallacy called non sequitur. It does not follow that because some capacities of lower animals are identified as instincts that humans can not and do not behave instinctively. ... Pretty much like the rage you are feeling now.

I couldn't help myself

 

[Zztop]

You have been in a hole for a while and appear to have reasoned that digging deeper is a smart response – But, are you ‘deep’ enough to contemplate that your latest argument exhibits an argument fallacy called non sequitur. It does not follow that because some capacities of lower animals are identified as instincts that humans can not and do not behave instinctively. ... Pretty much like the rage you are feeling now.

I couldn't help myself

It's not my argument, it's a scientific paper explaning their opinion on the subject. Which if you read all of it, will show that you haven't a clue, because anyone with half a brain knows rage is an emotion, not an instinct. Your really not that clever, you just think you are.

WHICH IS A THOUGHT YOU MIGHT WANT TO KEEP TO YOURSELF, IF YOUR SMART ENOUGH, BECAUSE IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE INSTINCTS ,THAT WOULD PUT YOU IN THAT LOWER CLASS OF ANIMALS, LIKE A SHEEP, OR DONKEY! I COULDN'T RESIST, I'M JUST SO EMOTIONAL.

 

[willgolfer]

Psychologists do recognize that humans do have biological predispositions or behaviors that are easy to learn due to biological wiring, for example walking and talking.[citation needed]

If these criteria are used in a rigorous scientific manner, application of the term "instinct" cannot be used in reference to human behavior.[citation needed] When terms, such as mothering, territoriality, eating, mating, and so on, are used to denote human behavior they are seen to not meet the criteria listed above. In comparison to animal behavior such as hibernation, migration, nest building, mating and so on that are clearly instinctual, no human behavior meets the necessary criteria. And even in regard to animals, in many cases if the correct learning is stopped from occurring these instinctual behaviors disappear, suggesting that they are potent, but limited, biological predispostions. In the final analysis, under this definition, there are no human instincts.

I took your advice and dug deeper and look what i found. See another article to refute your argument, like i said your experts versus my experts. And on and on we go ,where we end up no one knows... lol

Fail.

If you're going to cite a "wikipedia" page, at least pull out information with citations behind it.

 

[Zztop]

Fail.

If you're going to cite a "wikipedia" page, at least pull out information with citations behind it.

Why ? You going to turn me in? Who cares. Your still wrong no matter what and you started the whole stepping reflex b.s. Maybe you can incorporate it into your swing THE STEPPING REFLEX SWING BY WILLGOLFER, i like it, i think i'll give it a try. When is the dvd coming out?

 

[Brian Manzella]

You guys are off the reservation on all of this...

 

[Zztop]

You guys are off the reservation on all of this...

Quilty as charged. I'm better now,took my meds. p.s. it was just all a reflex action

 

[Steve Greffen]

Quilty as charged. I'm better now,took my meds. p.s. it was just all a reflex action

Or maybe reflux???