Left Wrist Cupped or Flat

[Spike]

Brian,

When holding the left hand out in front at arms length (4-A-1) and then making a fist, a bend in the wrist is clearly visable. Is this still considered a flat left wrist?

 

[Burner]

Brian,

When holding the left hand out in front at arms length (4-A-1) and then making a fist, a bend in the wrist is clearly visable. Is this still considered a flat left wrist?

No, it is a cocked left wrist with neither cupping or arching.

The cup that you can see once you make a fist is caused by the difference in orientation of the knuckles rather than the wrist. The wrist has to be arched a little in order to remove this cup.

 

[blehnhard]

Burner - since taking the grip is akin to making a 'fist', would the Flat Left Wrist at impact also have this visual 'cup' (i.e. the knuckles out of line with left arm?

Thanks - Bruce

 

[Burner]

Burner - since taking the grip is akin to making a 'fist', would the Flat Left Wrist at impact also have this visual 'cup' (i.e. the knuckles out of line with left arm?

Thanks - Bruce

No. The arching of the left wrist, achieved in the swing by the bending of the right wrist, flattens out the cup that making a fist caused.

 

[birdie_man]

No, it is a cocked left wrist with neither cupping or arching.

The cup that you can see once you make a fist is caused by the difference in orientation of the knuckles rather than the wrist. The wrist has to be arched a little in order to remove this cup.

Good post Burnmeister. Honestly never looked at it quite that way....seperating the wrist from the back of the left hand.

Is that consistent with TGM? (don't have my book at work to study it more closely) Small detail...but small details make all the difference.

...

No. The arching of the left wrist, achieved in the swing by the bending of the right wrist, flattens out the cup that making a fist caused.

Ya....according to your definitions above Burner....it would be slightly Arched then, no?

Man this is screwing with me now....

Someone shed some light.

 

[Spike]

No, it is a cocked left wrist with neither cupping or arching.

The cup that you can see once you make a fist is caused by the difference in orientation of the knuckles rather than the wrist. The wrist has to be arched a little in order to remove this cup.

Thanks Burner, if you don't mind can I throw these out there?

1) Would that mean that in picture 4-A-1 the wrist is flat and also cocked per the second sentence of 4-B-2?

2) If the wrist is arching a little to flatten the "cup" at impact then it would seem to me that the 1st Imperitive is worded wrong.

The only time I can see when the flat left wrist condition being achieved is when the wrist is fully uncocked. Anything past the uncocked wrist would look like arching to me. So isn't it the uncocking that removes the "cup" at impact?

 

[Burner]

Thanks Burner, if you don't mind can I throw these out there?

1) Would that mean that in picture 4-A-1 the wrist is flat and also cocked per the second sentence of 4-B-2?

2) If the wrist is arching a little to flatten the "cup" at impact then it would seem to me that the 1st Imperitive is worded wrong.

The only time I can see when the flat left wrist condition being achieved is when the wrist is fully uncocked. Anything past the uncocked wrist would look like arching to me. So isn't it the uncocking that removes the "cup" at impact?

The words I have used, and thoughts behind them, are mine and not book driven. In this I may have befuddled folk.

Thus, when I used the term "arched" I only meant it as a reference to the straightening, or flattening, of the wrist by the removal of the "cup" - "Arching" being the opposite of "Cupping".

This flattening the wrist transition, removal of the "cup" by "arching", can, and often is, done at impact fix. The resultant flat, neither "cupped" or "arched", left wrist and bent right wrist then remaining constant right through the swing to both arms straight.

Sorry if my "arched" reference caused confusion but I try use laymans language rather than rely on quotations from the book.

 

[Spike]

The words I have used, and thoughts behind them, are mine and not book driven. In this I may have befuddled folk.

Thus, when I used the term "arched" I only meant it as a reference to the straightening, or flattening, of the wrist by the removal of the "cup" - "Arching" being the opposite of "Cupping".

This flattening the wrist transition, removal of the "cup" by "arching", can, and often is, done at impact fix. The resultant flat, neither "cupped" or "arched", left wrist and bent right wrist then remaining constant right through the swing to both arms straight.

Sorry if my "arched" reference caused confusion but I try use laymans language rather than rely on quotations from the book.

Thank you Burner, I appreciate the laymens terms and your input. Reading and writing have always been difficult for me, but by God I can trace pretty good!!!

Just wondering about your opinion of the question I asked about uncocking

The only time I can see when the flat left wrist condition being achieved is when the wrist is fully uncocked. Anything past the uncocked wrist would look like arching to me. So isn't it the uncocking that removes the "cup" at impact?

 

[Burner]

Thank you Burner, I appreciate the laymens terms and your input. Reading and writing have always been difficult for me, but by God I can trace pretty good!!!

Just wondering about your opinion of the question I asked about uncocking

The only time I can see when the flat left wrist condition being achieved is when the wrist is fully uncocked. Anything past the uncocked wrist would look like arching to me. So isn't it the uncocking that removes the "cup" at impact?

You might just have to trace me the question 'cos I am struggling with it a little.

In my view a cupped left wrist, the anatomical by product of the cocking motion we mentioned earlier, does not rely on the uncocking motion in order to flatten it. The flatness is only achievable in cocked, level and uncocked wrist orientations by the bending, and maintenance thereof, of the right wrist.

As far as the book goes, 4-A and 4-B reference different ranges of motion. 4-A relates to the horizontal range and is relevant to arching, bending and straightness on a horizontal plane. 4-B relates to a perpendicular range of motion, level, cocked and uncocked only.

Because a product of the horizontal range, cupping, has the temerity to manifest itself in the perpendicular range does not mean to say that we should allow the condition to remain so. Hence, the bending of the right wrist at impact fix, or whenever, to remove the cup.

If the left wrist adopts and is allowed to retain its cupped aspect from start up through to impact we would be in trouble - flipper in sliceville most likely.

Hope I've picked up on your points as required.

 

[Spike]

You might just have to trace me the question 'cos I am struggling with it a little.

In my view a cupped left wrist, the anatomical by product of the cocking motion we mentioned earlier, does not rely on the uncocking motion in order to flatten it. The flatness is only achievable in cocked, level and uncocked wrist orientations by the bending, and maintenance thereof, of the right wrist.

As far as the book goes, 4-A and 4-B reference different ranges of motion. 4-A relates to the horizontal range and is relevant to arching, bending and straightness on a horizontal plane. 4-B relates to a perpendicular range of motion, level, cocked and uncocked only.

Because a product of the horizontal range, cupping, has the temerity to manifest itself in the perpendicular range does not mean to say that we should allow the condition to remain so. Hence, the bending of the right wrist at impact fix, or whenever, to remove the cup.

If the left wrist adopts and is allowed to retain its cupped aspect from start up through to impact we would be in trouble - flipper in sliceville most likely.

Hope I've picked up on your points as required.

For sure and for sure. Maybe I can trace it this way. Standing upright, I grip the club with the shaft pointing to the center of my hips, elbows pointing somewhere at my hips.

Wrists are in a horizontal position with the "cupped" look in the left hand and "flat" look in the right. By uncocking the left wrist from that position (no extra cocking) the shaft will come into line with the left arm. This will cause the right wrist to uncock and bend back. It also causes the "cupped" look to disappear.

As you can tell I am truly a novice when it comes to TGM so my words probably don't match the correct definition. The above is just what I observe.

Thanks for being there!
spike

 

[Burner]

For sure and for sure. Maybe I can trace it this way. Standing upright, I grip the club with the shaft pointing to the center of my hips, elbows pointing somewhere at my hips.

Wrists are in a horizontal position with the "cupped" look in the left hand and "flat" look in the right. By uncocking the left wrist from that position (no extra cocking) the shaft will come into line with the left arm. This will cause the right wrist to uncock and bend back. It also causes the "cupped" look to disappear.

As you can tell I am truly a novice when it comes to TGM so my words probably don't match the correct definition. The above is just what I observe.

Thanks for being there!
spike

Spike,

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are anything but the "true novice" that you profess to be. Your questions belie your assertions to that effect.

My preferred example used to observe these wrist orientations would be to hold your left arm straight out in front of you, as if you had just swung it up from your side, and parallel to the ground. Make your fist and place the club in it at a 90* angle, i.e pointing straight up to the sky. That is a fully cocked left wrist, which should also be a little cupped.

Now pass your right arm diagonally across your body and place your right hand on the grip, as normal, and that wrist will be pretty straight.

If you now uncock the left wrist, i.e point the clubhead to the horizon in line with your left arm, it is my contention that there will still be some cupping of the left wrist in evidence whilst your right wrist remains pretty straight.

Reverting now back to the previous 90* degree cocked left wrist position with both hands on the club you will find that if you bend your right wrist back, i.e put a cup in it, that your left wrist will flatten.

It is the bending of the right wrist on a horizontal, or inclined plane, that controls the flatness, or otherwise, of the left wrist.

The uncocking of the left wrist as an antidote to cupping is a placebo at best but more of an illusion, IMHO.

 

[Spike]

Spike,

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are anything but the "true novice" that you profess to be. Your questions belie your assertions to that effect.

My preferred example used to observe these wrist orientations would be to hold your left arm straight out in front of you, as if you had just swung it up from your side, and parallel to the ground. Make your fist and place the club in it at a 90* angle, i.e pointing straight up to the sky. That is a fully cocked left wrist, which should also be a little cupped.

Now pass your right arm diagonally across your body and place your right hand on the grip, as normal, and that wrist will be pretty straight.

If you now uncock the left wrist, i.e point the clubhead to the horizon in line with your left arm, it is my contention that there will still be some cupping of the left wrist in evidence whilst your right wrist remains pretty straight.

Reverting now back to the previous 90* degree cocked left wrist position with both hands on the club you will find that if you bend your right wrist back, i.e put a cup in it, that your left wrist will flatten.

It is the bending of the right wrist on a horizontal, or inclined plane, that controls the flatness, or otherwise, of the left wrist.

The uncocking of the left wrist as an antidote to cupping is a placebo at best but more of an illusion, IMHO.

Nice one!!! I, now, see your point of the flat left wrist as an effect of the right hand in the backswing.

I don't mean to deceive...I was just really lousy in the maths department. I'm working harder now than I ever had before. Wish I'd paid more attention to it back then!

Thank you for your help, my good man!
spike

 

[Brian Manzella]

Unreadable...

All of this flat is not flat and cupped is flat and in the plane of and all this other nonsense....

The great players by in large had VISUALLY flat left wrists at the top and at impact, or slightly arched, or whatever the heck you want to call it.

I remember when the SI cover came out called "Masterpiece" after Eldrick won Augusta a few years back.

He was maybe the best player ever, and his damn left wrist was as flat as this table.

And Nicklaus and Palmer had very similar pictures taken during their 10----count 'em----10----Masters wins.

(After the "Masterpiece" cover) I said, "Well that ought to do it for all the bent left wrist at the top lovers."

I was wrong, and PT Barnum was right.

 

[Burner]

All of this flat is not flat and cupped is flat and in the plane of and all this other nonsense....

The great players by in large had VISUALLY flat left wrists at the top and at impact, or slightly arched, or whatever the heck you want to call it.

I remember when the SI cover came out called "Masterpiece" after Eldrick won Augusta a few years back.

He was maybe the best player ever, and his damn left wrist was as flat as this table.

And Nicklaus and Palmer had very similar pictures taken during their 10----count 'em----10----Masters wins.

(After the "Masterpiece" cover) I said, "Well that ought to do it for all the bent left wrist at the top lovers."

I was wrong, and PT Barnum was right.

Flat, schmatt or where's you hat - I think Spike and I have sorted ourselves out.

You, Brian, as ever, have it right on the button - Flat at Impact is crucial and flat at the end of the backswing is a pre-cursor to achieving this imperative.

We are all on the same page...........I think.

 

[birdie_man]

Sucker born every minute...

 

[Spike]

I wasn't breast fed for 14 years just to turn out like this!

Still hungry after all these years. (sung to the tune....)

 

[hg]

Was Player serious when he suggested that Tiger's problem with his driver is his flat left wrist at the top of the swing....I believe he suggested that it should be slightly cupped.