Length of Arms/Clubs, and the Kinetic Chain

[natep]

I've noticed in most of the double pendulum kinetic chain math models that the segments are the same size. I'm wondering if there's ever been any data released on what the optimum lengths of the segments should be in the golf swing, relative to one's arm length.

Is there an optimum arm to club ratio, as in 1:1 or 1:1.5 ? Conventional wisdom is that you measure the distance between one's wrist and the ground for clubfitting purposes. I'm just curious as to whether or not someone with long arms should play longer than standard clubs, or shorter than standard clubs. And vice versa for someone with short arms.

Surely there must be an optimum club length for everyone that lies somewhere between the extremes of way too short and way too long, relative to their arm length. Does anyone know of any research that has addressed this, either real-world or in a math model?

Thanks for your input.

 

[golfball323]

I really like this kind of thinking. Would love some input if anybody has any evidence to support their thoughts.

 

[birly-shirly]

My guess would be that you can't meaningfully look at length in isolation. The weight of each lever would be important, since you're dealing in a transfer of momentum. My other guess would be that in most cases you would be looking at a trade-off between maximum efficiency in generating clubhead speed, and accuracy.

That said, conventional wisdom says that longer drivers are all about distance but sacrifice accuracy. But I have wondered whether a club that generates clubhead speed more efficiently for a given level of effort shouldn't also be more accurate if you take the opportunity to swing the clubhead at the same speed for a lower level of effort.

 

[natep]

My guess would be that you can't meaningfully look at length in isolation. The weight of each lever would be important, since you're dealing in a transfer of momentum. My other guess would be that in most cases you would be looking at a trade-off between maximum efficiency in generating clubhead speed, and accuracy.

That said, conventional wisdom says that longer drivers are all about distance but sacrifice accuracy. But I have wondered whether a club that generates clubhead speed more efficiently for a given level of effort shouldn't also be more accurate if you take the opportunity to swing the clubhead at the same speed for a lower level of effort.

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking.

 

[dbl]

I would guess that if a person has a set radians/sec that he can do with his left arm, then with short arms and long clubs he can get more clubhead speed than long arms and short clubs.

 

[natep]

The reason I'm asking is that I have fairly long arms. I once looked at a club fitting chart and because of the length from my hands to the ground it was suggested that I have my clubs bend 3* flat. But my clubs feel OK right now, if anything I feel they should be bend upright a degree or two.

I feel like my 8-iron thru wedge are too short. Whatever accuracy I should gain by this is cancelled out by the fact that I have to swing so damn hard with them to get the right distance so I dont have gaps in my range.

I hit driver 300+
3 wood 260-270
7 wood 240

PW I can barely hit 100 yards.

 

[ej20]

The reason I'm asking is that I have fairly long arms. I once looked at a club fitting chart and because of the length from my hands to the ground it was suggested that I have my clubs bend 3* flat. But my clubs feel OK right now, if anything I feel they should be bend upright a degree or two.

I feel like my 8-iron thru wedge are too short. Whatever accuracy I should gain by this is cancelled out by the fact that I have to swing so damn hard with them to get the right distance so I dont have gaps in my range.

I hit driver 300+
3 wood 260-270
7 wood 240

PW I can barely hit 100 yards.

That is highly unusual.If you can carry a driver 300 yards you should be able to carry a PW 150 yards.You normally double the carry of your PW with your driver.

 

[natep]

I dont always get 300 carry. Probably average 280 carry.

3 iron about 210.
5 iron 180
7 iron 160
9 iron 135
PW ~100

I play old blades, so that might have something to do with it. 1988 Hogan Apex Redlines with original shafts.

 

[Festus]

I hit driver 300+
3 wood 260-270
7 wood 240

PW I can barely hit 100 yards.

You just described my game to a T (although not NEARLY as long). I can dink my little trap draw driver 240 - 250 all day long at maybe 75 - 80% power. 5 wood around 190 - 200 off the deck same way.

9-iron? Maybe 120 - 125 max swinging a lot harder. And the ball flight seems good, not some uber-balloon ball. I'm 6' even with standard (whatever that means nowdays) length clubs. I'm thinking of going graphite on the irons just to blend the distances better like natep. I'd love to hear some more input on this subject before going that route.

 

[natep]

Yes. I could probably hit 20 balls from 180 with a smooth 5-iron and have a tighter shot pattern than I could from 110 trying to murder a wedge.

I feel like if my shafts were longer I wouldnt have to swing so hard with my short irons and would be more accurate.

 

[savydan]

I think a lot of these reported shorter iron distances on the internet are with "flipped-thinned" efforts downwind after 2 bounces on a dried-out range. I wouldn't worry about it. Nicklaus wasn't that appreciably longer with the short and mid-irons but was longer with the long irons and driver.

I think that's what you get when you hit them "correctly".

 

[aaron_lohan]

I dont always get 300 carry. Probably average 280 carry.

3 iron about 210.
5 iron 180
7 iron 160
9 iron 135
PW ~100

I play old blades, so that might have something to do with it. 1988 Hogan Apex Redlines with original shafts.

CHeck the lofts on your short irons.

 

[birly-shirly]

Yep. 20 year old forged blades could be well out of adjustment by now, depending on the life they've had.

Then again, maybe you'll discover that the PW is the only club that is at the right loft and in real life you're a short arse!

 

[natep]

Yep. 20 year old forged blades could be well out of adjustment by now, depending on the life they've had.

Then again, maybe you'll discover that the PW is the only club that is at the right loft and in real life you're a short arse!

LOL Yes! Plus I'm playing at 4000 ft. above sea level so it may be even worse!

 

[SteveT]

The reason I'm asking is that I have fairly long arms. I once looked at a club fitting chart and because of the length from my hands to the ground it was suggested that I have my clubs bend 3* flat. But my clubs feel OK right now, if anything I feel they should be bend upright a degree or two.

I feel like my 8-iron thru wedge are too short.

I hit driver 300+
3 wood 260-270
7 wood 240

PW I can barely hit 100 yards.

That's the opposite of novice golfers who can achieve distance separation with the short clubs but the 3-iron to driver are almost the same length..!!

If you're swing plane is flat, then your short clubs will tend to have shorter distances while your long clubs are long. That's my understanding, and if your swing plane is steep it will be reversed.

Again, if you're scooping or nipping the ball with your short irons, you will lose distance and gain height to your shots. If you take a more aggressive divot with a descending clubhead path, you may find the distance. Hard to say.

 

[natep]

Yes I probably dont deloft my short irons enough. I hit everything higher than anybody I've ever seen. I always have just kinda swept the ball of the ground, never took massive divots.
It was always my experience that if I had a forward leaning shaft at impact it was usually an overdraw or hook.
I think I might reshaft these old blades and leave the 8,9,E the same length as a 7 and see how it goes.

 

[SteveT]

Yes I probably dont deloft my short irons enough. I hit everything higher than anybody I've ever seen. I always have just kinda swept the ball of the ground, never took massive divots.
It was always my experience that if I had a forward leaning shaft at impact it was usually an overdraw or hook.
I think I might reshaft these old blades and leave the 8,9,E the same length as a 7 and see how it goes.

natep ... you don't need to reshaft your short clubs, all you need do is install shaft extension to make your short irons and wedges the same length. Ironically, this is what approximately happens when you change from a 'static' swingweighting to a 'dynamic' swingweighting. I've done it to my clubs which allowed me to slow down my swing effort and keeping swing speed a tad higher but not enough to hit my 9-iron from 150 yards.

If this works for you, then consider reshafting completely using the stiffest, lightweight steel shaft you can find, but only for your short irons. The mid and long irons can use a softer tip flex shaft so you can whipsnap them !!!

(I am so tuned to short distances, I can effectively use a 5-6-7 iron from 150 yards ... I don't kill the ball, I caress it with love and accuracy )

 

[natep]

That sounds like a more reasonable approach. I'm kind of hesitant to change the shafts because I dont even know what shafts are in these clubs and I'm concerned about getting something I don't like.

 

[birly-shirly]

I'm doubtful of the benefits of longer shafts in the short irons. You're already hitting it high - isn't any additional clubhead speed going to result largely in even higher trajectories? I'd have thought that someone here would be able to say how much extra clubhead speed would be needed to add an extra 30 yards to a wedge assuming the same dynamic loft. But I'd expect it to be rather a lot - more than could be added with an inch or two of extensions.

I still think checking the lofts is the first thing to do, and then checking whether your angle of attack/shaft lean is optimal. You might need to learn more shaft lean and then de-hook from there.

 

[natep]

Yes, I definitely will check the lofts. I bought these clubs off of ebay and they have plenty of miles on them.