Limitations of "Twisting the Shaft About Itself"? (now with MANZELLA VIDEO)

[Ryan Smither]

"Interestingly, most folks who have never seen me teach think I flatten everyone's wrist at the top, and have the golfer apply twistaway and limit the left arm flying wedge rotation on the backswing to help the golfer square up the club.

A weaker golfer, or a bigger slicer, MAYBE. But this ex-pro baseballer, who will be scratch if we continue to work, needed to learn to square the club up in a more "TOUR" manner."

The quote above, from Brian, raises two issues that I've often pondered:

(1) Whether a golfer is likely to reach and maintain a high level of play (scratch or better we'll say), while utilizing swing thoughts related to "twisting the shaft about itself." i.e. an active thought to arch or bend the left wrist.

(2) Whether a golfer is likely to perform adequately under pressure while utilizing these same swing thoughts.

 

[Shot Limit]

This is where I'm at right now. Sometimes I wish there was only one way to skin a cat.

 

[birdie_man]

Use it as a conscious "swing key" when they are over a shot Ryan?

 

[Ryan Smither]

The issue that I'm trying to address is more of a long-term development question.

Can a player simply learn how to torque the shaft and then "un-learn" it so-to-speak? Can the conscious action eventually become a part of the golfer's subconscious motion?

Can we ruin a player's long term development by teaching him to actively torque the shaft?

Is the answer different depending on the player and their individual circumstances?

Do we know any "high caliber" players that consciously torque the shaft? Do they have trouble under pressure?

Do we know any "high caliber" players that learned to torque the shaft at some point in their development?

 

[ej20]

The way I see it,overdoing the twistaway will result in the opposite of over rotating the flying wedge...under rotating the flying wedge,especially done together with a flying right elbow.

A lot of talk here have been about over rotating the flying wedge but what about the downside of under rotating it or is it something every player should strive for?

 

[Kevin Shields]

I hate seeing an under rotated flying wedge almost as much as an over rotated one. The downswing is almost always an undercutting motion that only a few can save. You need to keep the right heel down and really have a strong twist to resist the undoing of the under rotated part so it falls right back on the plane instead of under.

 

[spmurph]

I hate seeing an under rotated flying wedge almost as much as an over rotated one. The downswing is almost always an undercutting motion that only a few can save. You need to keep the right heel down and really have a strong twist to resist the undoing of the under rotated part so it falls right back on the plane instead of under.

How can you keep from under rotating the flying wedge? I remember seeing a video by Martin Chuck which recommended keeping the butt of the club pointed at the target line in the downswing.

 

[rogerdodger]

"Interestingly, most folks who have never seen me teach think I flatten everyone's wrist at the top, and have the golfer apply twistaway and limit the left arm flying wedge rotation on the backswing to help the golfer square up the club.

A weaker golfer, or a bigger slicer, MAYBE. But this ex-pro baseballer, who will be scratch if we continue to work, needed to learn to square the club up in a more "TOUR" manner."

The quote above, from Brian, raises two issues that I've often pondered:

(1) Whether a golfer is likely to reach and maintain a high level of play (scratch or better we'll say), while utilizing swing thoughts related to "twisting the shaft about itself." i.e. an active thought to arch or bend the left wrist.

(2) Whether a golfer is likely to perform adequately under pressure while utilizing these same swing thoughts.

Once the torquing is done over and over, it presumably would be second nature and no conscious effort would be required. Mickey Wright focused a lot on "curling down" at the top of the swing, tightening or feeling the last three fingers of the left hand. Minnesota's most famous teaching pro, Les Bolstad, taught many lpga players back in
Wright's day and stressed the keeping of the clubface square with the last three fingers of the left hand, or pressure point #2 in Golfing Machine terms, due to the stress of the pivot on the shaft and the requirement of strong hands to withstand it. There is a recently published book that discusses Bolstad's teaching. In any event, I have always had strong fast legs and weak hands. Brian's twistaway has made a huge difference because I can pivot without worrying about the face opening. I think it is a hand strength issue. If my hands were stronger, I would not need to worry about it as much, once I learned to keep the face square. I imagine at some point the twistaway will be unconscious as it is part of my swing.

 

[lookingtolearn]

I hate seeing an under rotated flying wedge almost as much as an over rotated one. The downswing is almost always an undercutting motion that only a few can save. You need to keep the right heel down and really have a strong twist to resist the undoing of the under rotated part so it falls right back on the plane instead of under.

This x1000. I learned this the hard way. If I'm under rotated going back, the downswing is an all-pulling/no right arm swipe with lots of face rotation. Yuck.

 

[birly-shirly]

Ryan - I think these are interesting questions, but still curious why you're asking about this specifically. What I mean is, is there a reason why you single out "torque the shaft" from all other mechanical swing thoughts, as presumably, potentially, dangerous?

My guess would be that you're thinking it's pretty powerful medicine. Move your head an inch, and no-one will notice nor will the ball. But torque your left knuckles an inch and you've moved the clubface maybe 10* - 15*. Am I on the right track?

For what it's worth, and to answer your question, I can think of a few examples of elite pros who say they thought consciously about this. Hogan and his secret (Life magazine version!) is one - albeit with the torque in the reverse direction to twistaway.

Also, Faldo talks about folding the right wrist back on itself in his first book on the swing, and retaining this shape deep into the downswing. Pure twistaway as I understand it, although I don't think Faldo/Leadbetter was trying to cure a slice.

John Jacobs said that Trevino told him he consciously altered his left wrist angle (arched, flat or cupped) at the top of his swing depending on the trajectory he wanted.

Lastly, Nicklaus has said that he was conscious of his left wrist position at the top of the swing and the knock-on effects it had on his shotmaking. However, I don't think he saw this as something to consciously manipulate - more as a result of pre-swing fundamentals and takeaway.

So I don't think it's something that is detrimental in itself to think about.

I suppose another way of asking the question would be:

"Is someone who needs to be shown twistaway in order to square the clubface likely to be limited in their ultimate ballstriking potential?" Different slant on the issue and way of looking at the outcomes. Can't say I know the answer myself - although Brian seemed pretty confident of the potential of the student you mentioned.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Part of Faldo's early problems included an open face at the top. Remember, I have a man crush on him.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yeah Baby!

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[birdie_man]

The way I see it,overdoing the twistaway will result in the opposite of over rotating the flying wedge...under rotating the flying wedge,especially done together with a flying right elbow.

A lot of talk here have been about over rotating the flying wedge but what about the downside of under rotating it or is it something every player should strive for?

Good post I think.

What do you mean "done together with a flying right elbow" though...?

Twistaway and flying right elbow?? Doesn't really work no?

 

[greenfree]

Exactly! love this Brian, some of the best vids are short and sweet and have the best info. Hope you were watching Jeff M.

 

[birdie_man]

Brian...

You talk about applying constant torque to basically make the club do what you want it to do.

This is to get it into positions but also probably to resist things like gravity, yes?

Can you use momentum to your advantage? (for the same reasons)

How can you keep from under rotating the flying wedge? I remember seeing a video by Martin Chuck which recommended keeping the butt of the club pointed at the target line in the downswing.

Helps me to turn my right hip. I presume it probably works similar to how doing this stops you from overrotating (open) the clubface...

Try it attempting NO hip turn. Then a full right hip turn. (to feel the difference)

It is kind of difficult to explain so I feel like I should leave it for now. I don't want to go too much "out on a limb."

It helped me anyhow.

Same deal with turning my right shoulder more. If my right shoulder doesn't turn it's like my hands automatically try to work "extra" to make up for the loss in range of motion. (or something like that)

Once the torquing is done over and over, it presumably would be second nature and no conscious effort would be required. Mickey Wright focused a lot on "curling down" at the top of the swing, tightening or feeling the last three fingers of the left hand. Minnesota's most famous teaching pro, Les Bolstad, taught many lpga players back in Wright's day and stressed the keeping of the clubface square with the last three fingers of the left hand, or pressure point #2 in Golfing Machine terms, due to the stress of the pivot on the shaft and the requirement of strong hands to withstand it.

I like it.

Thank you Rog.

Interestingly, Hogan pointed out the same 3 fingers (of the left hand) in his Coleman Estate Footage video.

You need to keep the right heel down and really have a strong twist to resist the undoing of the under rotated part so it falls right back on the plane instead of under.

"Strong twist" in what direction Kevin? You mean "strong twist(away)" in the downswing? (to stop getting underplane?)

Or something like strong twist OFF the plane? (i.e. tumble)

Ryan - I think these are interesting questions, but still curious why you're asking about this specifically. What I mean is, is there a reason why you single out "torque the shaft" from all other mechanical swing thoughts, as presumably, potentially, dangerous?

My guess would be that you're thinking it's pretty powerful medicine. Move your head an inch, and no-one will notice nor will the ball. But torque your left knuckles an inch and you've moved the clubface maybe 10* - 15*. Am I on the right track?

For what it's worth, and to answer your question, I can think of a few examples of elite pros who say they thought consciously about this. Hogan and his secret (Life magazine version!) is one - albeit with the torque in the reverse direction to twistaway.

Also, Faldo talks about folding the right wrist back on itself in his first book on the swing, and retaining this shape deep into the downswing. Pure twistaway as I understand it, although I don't think Faldo/Leadbetter was trying to cure a slice.

John Jacobs said that Trevino told him he consciously altered his left wrist angle (arched, flat or cupped) at the top of his swing depending on the trajectory he wanted.

Lastly, Nicklaus has said that he was conscious of his left wrist position at the top of the swing and the knock-on effects it had on his shotmaking. However, I don't think he saw this as something to consciously manipulate - more as a result of pre-swing fundamentals and takeaway.

So I don't think it's something that is detrimental in itself to think about.

I suppose another way of asking the question would be:

"Is someone who needs to be shown twistaway in order to square the clubface likely to be limited in their ultimate ballstriking potential?" Different slant on the issue and way of looking at the outcomes. Can't say I know the answer myself - although Brian seemed pretty confident of the potential of the student you mentioned.

Great post- thank you.

 

[Ryan Smither]

Thanks to Brian and Birly for a couple good posts that moved the discussion along.

Can you elaborate on this quote, Brian?

"Interestingly, most folks who have never seen me teach think I flatten everyone's wrist at the top, and have the golfer apply twistaway and limit the left arm flying wedge rotation on the backswing to help the golfer square up the club.

A weaker golfer, or a bigger slicer, MAYBE. But this ex-pro baseballer, who will be scratch if we continue to work, needed to learn to square the club up in a more "TOUR" manner."

 

[rogerdodger]

Great video explanation. I think the rotation is most important in the downswing. For years I underestimated the torque on the shaft caused by the pivot. I always tried to reduce my hand involvement at the top, as most instruction calls for. Making sure the club does not rotate open with the hands is not casting.

 

[Shot Limit]

Must be an echo in here

 

[rogerdodger]

Must be an echo in here

trigger happy

 

[Ringer]

I have a VERY different take on this.

AT IMPACT, the clubface alignment has NOTHING to do with the left wrist being bent/flat/bowed. It can add LOFT or decrease LOFT, but DOESN'T change alignment of the leading edge on the clubface.

The amount the forearms are rotated does.

When you "twist the shaft about itself", your forearm is twisting along with the bending of the wrist. But if you stick that club out in front of you as it would be at impact, the clubface will only rotate with your forearm. It's different at the top of the backswing because the shaft is not straight out in front of you as it would be at impact.