Looking for drills for club face rotation at and through and after impact

[Brian Manzella]

this thread has the possiblity of being a really good thread.

I agree....

It has all the qualities.

Fun so far

 

[Brian Manzella]

Seriously, Arch...

Are you familiar with the term "Gamma Torque"?

 

[Archimedes]

"Lay Back".......I call BS.....you mean NOT OPEN AT IMPACT, don't you?

Brian calling BS on me! Brian. I love you man. But, I do not mean open at impact. I have not been talking about a vector normal to the plane of the clubface at impact pointing to the right or to the left of the target at impact. I am talking about a vector normal to the plane of the clubface at impact pointing too high. I can hit little 8 and 9 iron shots to the 100 yard flag were I practice all day long. Straight. Fade. Draw. I understand the New Brian Manzella Trackman Ball Flight Laws. I am not asking any question where the ball flight laws would be part of the answer.

My definition: Laying Back - At impact and at separation, the clubface position has more loft than the clubface would have when hit by a standard good player because the shaft is not leaning toward the target as much as it would be if hit by a standard good player. After impact, the clubface continues to point square to or open to the clubhead path as the hands slow down, the left wrist bends, and the shaft reaches parallel with the toe of the club not pointing up. And the club shaft reaches parallel after impact with the hands more waist high than chest high.

This is why I love those videos I posted. They show the clubhead rotating quickly after impact, show the toe of the club pointing toward the target right away. I believe that the drill that I was taught to hit small chip shots, stopping with the clubhead around 2 feet from impact, with a flat left wrist, not letting the clubhead pass the hands was incomplete, because it did not then teach me what needs to happen next. Maybe it is a good starting drill. But, there needs to be another drill that helps me to correctly pivot toward the target, rotate the toe toward the target, extend my arms, and keep my spine inclined and back. I am even wondering if it was that short chipping drill that got me slowing my pivot and slowing my hands and stealing my distance.

I am not familiar with the term "Gamma Torque".

 

[tongzilla]

I think this guy just wants less dynamic loft at impact to create a lower launch angle.

All this other stuff about layback, clubface closing, left wrist bending too soon after impact, hand and clubface rotation, extending his arms, etc- all this stuff is what he thinks he needs to do to achieve lower launch.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian calling BS on me! Brian. I love you man.

I know when to do it.

I am not asking any question where the ball flight laws would be part of the answer.

1500° per second for a hacker slicer CLOSING RATE of the clubface.....repeat and take out your calculator and report back.

My definition: Laying Back - At impact and at separation, the clubface position has more loft than the clubface would have when hit by a standard good player because the shaft is not leaning toward the target as much as it would be if hit by a standard good player.

Got it....

After impact, the clubface continues to point square to or open to the clubhead path as the hands slow down, the left wrist bends, and the shaft reaches parallel with the toe of the club not pointing up. And the club shaft reaches parallel after impact with the hands more waist high than chest high.

Toe hit?

Wide open face at impact?

I believe that the drill that I was taught to hit small chip shots, stopping with the clubhead around 2 feet from impact, with a flat left wrist, not letting the clubhead pass the hands was incomplete, because it did not then teach me what needs to happen next.

I have used a short ship drill on a real golfer ONCE in the last 6 years.

Better ways to do it.

I am not familiar with the term "Gamma Torque".

It means...
TWISTING THE SHAFT open—negative gamma
or
TWISTING THE SHAFT closed—positive gamma


You have to use a LOT of it to hit a decent shot.




The twisting TORQUE, has to result in twisting ROTATION at the clubhead of about 900° per second at last parallel pre impact, and 2400-2800° at impact.


There is NO OTHER WAY.




Gamma is famously omitted in many golf science-fiction books and methods.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I think this guy just wants less dynamic loft at impact to create a lower launch angle.

I love you dearly Leo, but I disagree strongly.

 

[tongzilla]

I love you dearly Leo, but I disagree strongly.

I love you too Brian.

Well that was the impression I got from his posts:

With weaker, higher shots as a result.

I am looking for a drill that helps me keep my left wrist flat at and after impact as I then rotate my hands, helping me to hit the ball lower and with more compression.

 

[Archimedes]

I think this guy just wants less dynamic loft at impact to create a lower launch angle.

I love you tongzilla, but if all I wanted is what you say I wanted, I would not have said so much about the toe pointing toward the target so soon in those videos.

 

[Archimedes]

Excellent. More and faster and sooner positive gamma.

 

[tongzilla]

Always be careful saying the word "just" in a limiting way. If all I wanted is what you say I wanted, I would not have said so much about the toe pointing toward the target so soon in those videos.

Not trying to put words in your mouth...but in terms of BALL FLIGHT...that's sort of the gist of it right...you want lower not higher.

 

[Archimedes]

Not trying to put words in your mouth...but in terms of BALL FLIGHT...that's sort of the gist of it right...you want lower not higher.

Your original statement that I "just" wanted less dynamic loft is false.

 

[Brian Manzella]

So....

Since you never heard of GAMMA, did you ever TRY to twist the shaft into impact?

 

[Archimedes]

No. I had an incorrect vision of angled hinging to mean where the club face points along the arc of the club head path. So that when the shaft was parallel to the ground after impact the club face was pointing along the plane and clubhead arc and about 45 degrees angled to the ground. Hanging on with no gamma torque. With the right elbow straightening helping to square the clubface at impact, but not thinking rotation after impact.

Gamma Torque of zero degrees per second.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well....

Here it is....

You have to learn to apply a twist to the shaft.


You HAVE BEEN doing it, trust me, just not early enough and enough enough.








angled hinging, layback,.....and no gamma......

That's why I have a job—science fiction.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Arch,

Ever seen the lead wrist graph of a really good player?

 

[Archimedes]

No. I saw a video on youtube of Steve Elkington hooked up to all these sensors and then afterward reviewing the graphs of the data with the operator of the equipment. I never thought that lead wrist angular rotation would be one of the data points.

And I would think that the angular rotation can not be too early. I would think that you would still have to really get the heel of the club to the inside of the ball just as you get your torque on.

I would expect some level of zero or negative torque to the clubhead path before positive torque to the clubhead path. But maybe gamma torque is more of an absolute measurement.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ok....

Here ya go....

THE PEAK OF THE GREEN (arch) is approximately here:

 

[Archimedes]

Wow. It is the longest steepest curve. Looks pretty important.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yes, it is.

That green line going down means that the golfer (a PGA Tour winner) is RAPIDLY, MASSIVELY, in the process of bending his left wrist as fast as he can.

95% of the time—THE ONLY WAY to hit it far enough to play tour golf at a high level.

 

[Michael Finney]

But what about the sequenced release - I don't see it represented in the graph - WTH?