Manzella vs. Haney

[otto6457]

OK folks......Here is the real deal.

Many of you may remember my thread, "I Need To Vent". I was in a bad way after spending the last 2.5 years committed to Haney's philosophy. I won't rehash what I said, but suffice it to say I was VERY disappointed with my lack of real world improvement. I was sent here by a local pro to have a look around and to kind of get acquainted with a guy named Brian Manzella

When I started working with Hank Haney himself in 1990, I was a middle of the pack, ex-jr. college player, that wanted to have a swing that I could trust when things got interesting. Fast Forward to 2007, with a break from golf to coach and teach soccer, and as a single dad, to raise two daughters that became wonderful college soccer players. I rejoined the Haney family 2.5 years ago for serious, committed work. When I say serious, I am not just waving my hands here. Lessons 6 hours away in Dallas once a month and countless video exchanges between me and my instructor. My swing, while it looks much different than it did 2.5 years ago, STILL didn't produce better results. Not forgetting that my instructor has players on the European Tour, LPGA, Nationwide Tour, College, and some of the top AJGA players in the country.

Well everyone......I had my first REAL golf lessons. I received more instruction in the two days I spent with Brian than I had in the last 2.5 years. I am not blowing smoke up your collective arses just because this is Brian's forum. The difference between Brian and Hank Haney is that Brian can "TEACH". Brian was a joy for me. For starts, I didn't spend half of my lesson time staring at a monitor while an "expert" drew lines and him telling me I have to be "here" and "here". Brian gave me the tools through numerous different sets of drills, to try and find the one thing that gave me the "feel" I had to have to change what I was doing wrong . For me, if I can't "feel" a difference, it's not different. He not only gave me the new feel I needed, he clearly explained WHY I have to feel that. Guys, if your teacher can't tell you EXACTLY why you are not hitting the ball correctly and show you EXACTLY where it is going wrong, and what the correct feel should be, in my opinion, he can't fix you. Not only that, as a feel player I can't tell you how important it is for a teacher to be able paint a good picture. When Brian hits a golf ball, the sound is right, the trajectory is right, and the ball flight is to die for. (Have you folks ever seen Haney hit a golf ball? I haven't, because he NEVER hit one during any of my lessons with him) This may be a bad thing for me to say, but if I feel like I can hit the ball as well as the guy teaching me, I don't see any need in listening to what he has to teach. Again guys, not to sound like a suck up, but Brian can golf his ball.

Brian likes to give ratings to other instructors that he watches work, so I will give you my honest appraisal.

Hank Haney 5
Brain Manzella 9.5

I can't give Brian a 10 or his head will get too big and he would probably charge me extra for his "perfect" lessons. LOL!!! And, I can't give Haney lower than a 5 because it is quite possible that the problem in our relationship was me.

So.....Brian now has a new student. It is going to be much harder for me to work with Brian because he is a lot further away, but the quality of the instruction makes it impossible for me to go anywhere else.

I like to think that I am ahead of Tiger. I dropped Haney first. LOL!!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Some of you may not know this but i have only spent roughly 20 hours of instruction with Brian and to be honest it's even less because from 13-20 was at a golf school in Orlando and not "one on one."

Just a lot of reading his stuff and experimenting, and this is how I ended up how I am now.

Brian is an amazing teacher and will improve players faster than anyone i've ever seen or read about. Plus he can improve a high handicap or even a low handicap just as fast.

 

[hg]

OK folks......Here is the real deal.

Many of you may remember my thread, "I Need To Vent". I was in a bad way after spending the last 2.5 years committed to Haney's philosophy. I won't rehash what I said, but suffice it to say I was VERY disappointed with my lack of real world improvement. I was sent here by a local pro to have a look around and to kind of get acquainted with a guy named Brian Manzella

When I started working with Hank Haney himself in 1990, I was a middle of the pack, ex-jr. college player, that wanted to have a swing that I could trust when things got interesting. Fast Forward to 2007, with a break from golf to coach and teach soccer, and as a single dad, to raise two daughters that became wonderful college soccer players. I rejoined the Haney family 2.5 years ago for serious, committed work. When I say serious, I am not just waving my hands here. Lessons 6 hours away in Dallas once a month and countless video exchanges between me and my instructor. My swing, while it looks much different than it did 2.5 years ago, STILL didn't produce better results. Not forgetting that my instructor has players on the European Tour, LPGA, Nationwide Tour, College, and some of the top AJGA players in the country.

Well everyone......I had my first REAL golf lessons. I received more instruction in the two days I spent with Brian than I had in the last 2.5 years. I am not blowing smoke up your collective arses just because this is Brian's forum. The difference between Brian and Hank Haney is that Brian can "TEACH". Brian was a joy for me. For starts, I didn't spend half of my lesson time staring at a monitor while an "expert" drew lines and him telling me I have to be "here" and "here". Brian gave me the tools through numerous different sets of drills, to try and find the one thing that gave me the "feel" I had to have to change what I was doing wrong . For me, if I can't "feel" a difference, it's not different. He not only gave me the new feel I needed, he clearly explained WHY I have to feel that. Guys, if your teacher can't tell you EXACTLY why you are not hitting the ball correctly and show you EXACTLY where it is going wrong, and what the correct feel should be, in my opinion, he can't fix you. Not only that, as a feel player I can't tell you how important it is for a teacher to be able paint a good picture. When Brian hits a golf ball, the sound is right, the trajectory is right, and the ball flight is to die for. (Have you folks ever seen Haney hit a golf ball? I haven't, because he NEVER hit one during any of my lessons with him) This may be a bad thing for me to say, but if I feel like I can hit the ball as well as the guy teaching me, I don't see any need in listening to what he has to teach. Again guys, not to sound like a suck up, but Brian can golf his ball.

Brian likes to give ratings to other instructors that he watches work, so I will give you my honest appraisal.

Hank Haney 5
Brain Manzella 9.5

I can't give Brian a 10 or his head will get too big and he would probably charge me extra for his "perfect" lessons. LOL!!! And, I can't give Haney lower than a 5 because it is quite possible that the problem in our relationship was me.

So.....Brian now has a new student. It is going to be much harder for me to work with Brian because he is a lot further away, but the quality of the instruction makes it impossible for me to go anywhere else.

I like to think that I am ahead of Tiger. I dropped Haney first. LOL!!

Brian should be giving you a discount on your next set of lessons for all the praise and glory you have bestowed on him...but where's the beef on your own improvements....post some video of before and after...give us some stats on handicap reduction, scoring improvements...we all want to believe that Brian is good at what he does...you mention continued work with Brian ...so how long will it take before you can be on your own and know enough to improve on your own. This is my biggest beef with golf instruction...the spoon feeding and the impression teachers give that you need to be attached to me to get better. Good teachers in my opinion should work toward teaching their student how to make improvements on their own. I'm only asking because your post sounded so much like a clip one would see on a TV informercial.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Brian should be giving you a discount on your next set of lessons for all the praise and glory you have bestowed on him...but where's the beef on your own improvements....post some video of before and after...give us some stats on handicap reduction, scoring improvements...we all want to believe that Brian is good at what he does...you mention continued work with Brian ...so how long will it take before you can be on your own and know enough to improve on your own. This is my biggest beef with golf instruction...the spoon feeding and the impression teachers give that you need to be attached to me to get better. Good teachers in my opinion should work toward teaching their student how to make improvements on their own. I'm only asking because your post sounded so much like a clip one would see on a TV informercial.

I think you should read my post above, that should clear it up for you.

 

[Ryan Smither]

hey hg...why don't you just come see Brian?

 

[otto6457]

Brian should be giving you a discount on your next set of lessons for all the praise and glory you have bestowed on him...but where's the beef on your own improvements....post some video of before and after...give us some stats on handicap reduction, scoring improvements...we all want to believe that Brian is good at what he does...you mention continued work with Brian ...so how long will it take before you can be on your own and know enough to improve on your own. This is my biggest beef with golf instruction...the spoon feeding and the impression teachers give that you need to be attached to me to get better. Good teachers in my opinion should work toward teaching their student how to make improvements on their own. I'm only asking because your post sounded so much like a clip one would see on a TV informercial.

HG

Good points.

Since this was my first time with Brian, and it ended yesterday, I can't quantify score improvement yet. I play off a GHIN of 3 currently, so my improvement in scoring most likely is not going to be huge. My problem was my inability to keep my misses in play. I wanted to get back to contending in State Amateur events here in Texas, so realistically I HAVE to get to where my bad ball striking rounds don't destroy my tournaments. Everyone has bad days, but mine were horrible. Good days 14-15 greens, bad days 5. OB swings from nowhere. The best putting in the world won't save that round. My basic fundamental swing is flawed and I relied on flipping to hit my target. When Brian started with me Thursday afternoon, I was 8 degrees inside-out with a closed clubface at impact. When we finished Friday morning, I was at 2 degrees inside and 2 degrees open at impact. THAT is improvement. I was flat and deep on my backswing, poor pivot with my hips and shoulders not open enough at impact, and my upright follow-through was pretty sad.

As to how long before I can solve my own problems, I already have drills from Brian that reinforce what I have to fix. I now have a memory bank that contains the "feel" I have to have to swing the club correctly. As far as "spoon feeding", I can already play the game. "Spoon feeding" to me is looking at a monitor and being told over and over that I HAVE to be in this position here and here. I need a swing that doesn't fail when the pressure goes up. I have never needed "spoon feeding" I just needed better information and correct information that addressed MY problems. I didn't get that with Haney. I got the same lesson every other Haney student gets. Not only that, I got that same lesson for 2.5 years. I still fail to understand how I could have gone 2.5 years and have the swing Brian saw when we started. It would appear from my perspective, I was getting "spoon fed" by my previous instructor. Am I missing something here?

Now, I may sound like an infomercial, but when you spend as much time, energy, and money as I did with a "Top 100" teacher, and feel as bad as I did about a month ago, you will probably understand why I am as excited as I am right now.

Now, if you happen to find my recommendation less than convincing, that is perfectly fine with me. Maybe you will be playing in the West Texas State Am this July 20-22 and we can see how my new swing holds up? Because I promise you, in the next 3 months, I WILL nail my new feel. And when I do, I will contend again.

 

[hg]

I think you should read my post above, that should clear it up for you.

Jim

I mean no disrespect...but again your post says that you spent 20 hours with Brian and he is the greatest...what solid statistics in your own game can you offer to support your contention. Everyone can say that his or her teacher is the greatest but the proof should be the results that occur on the course over a period of time. And maybe I am placing to much burden on the teacher... maybe an efficent swing doesn't convert to better scoring.

 

[hg]

hey hg...why don't you just come see Brian?

I may...just waiting to be more convinced...and I am on the other side of the country

 

[hg]

HG

Good points.

Since this was my first time with Brian, and it ended yesterday, I can't quantify score improvement yet. I play off a GHIN of 3 currently, so my improvement in scoring most likely is not going to be huge. My problem was my inability to keep my misses in play. I wanted to get back to contending in State Amateur events here in Texas, so realistically I HAVE to get to where my bad ball striking rounds don't destroy my tournaments. Everyone has bad days, but mine were horrible. Good days 14-15 greens, bad days 5. OB swings from nowhere. The best putting in the world won't save that round. My basic fundamental swing is flawed and I relied on flipping to hit my target. When Brian started with me Thursday afternoon, I was 8 degrees inside-out with a closed clubface at impact. When we finished Friday morning, I was at 2 degrees inside and 2 degrees open at impact. THAT is improvement. I was flat and deep on my backswing, poor pivot with my hips and shoulders not open enough at impact, and my upright follow-through was pretty sad.

As to how long before I can solve my own problems, I already have drills from Brian that reinforce what I have to fix. I now have a memory bank that contains the "feel" I have to have to swing the club correctly. As far as "spoon feeding", I can already play the game. "Spoon feeding" to me is looking at a monitor and being told over and over that I HAVE to be in this position here and here. I need a swing that doesn't fail when the pressure goes up. I have never needed "spoon feeding" I just needed better information and correct information that addressed MY problems. I didn't get that with Haney. I got the same lesson every other Haney student gets. Not only that, I got that same lesson for 2.5 years. I still fail to understand how I could have gone 2.5 years and have the swing Brian saw when we started. It would appear from my perspective, I was getting "spoon fed" by my previous instructor. Am I missing something here?

Now, I may sound like an infomercial, but when you spend as much time, energy, and money as I did with a "Top 100" teacher, and feel as bad as I did about a month ago, you will probably understand why I am as excited as I am right now.

Now, if you happen to find my recommendation less than convincing, that is perfectly fine with me. Maybe you will be playing in the West Texas State Am this July 20-22 and we can see how my new swing holds up? Because I promise you, in the next 3 months, I WILL nail my new feel. And when I do, I will contend again.

thank you for your post...it was what I was looking for ...a good description of the flaws and changes being made to your swing...and that you are just in the process of change. I am looking forward to your future posts..and I wish you good fortune in the West Texas State AM. I won't be there...just a duffer from CA on the road to getting better.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hard to believe, isn't it?

They come from all over the world...

Just about 100% of the time, the ones that have worked with so-called "ranked" teachers have said that my teaching ability is not just better, but much better than these famous instructors.

So.....

Why am I not on TV? Why am I not on the TOP 100/50 lists? Why am I not teaching 20 Tour players? etc.

Well folks, it is a funny business, and we have talked about all of this many-a-time.

It is almost as if, HG, that you don't want it to be true. If that is the case, you are in a growing group of people that hope I am not as good as I, and as you can see, many others have said.

Just curious, what do you do for a living?

 

[tongzilla]

I may...just waiting to be more convinced...and I am on the other side of the country

Just curious, but which teacher in the world do you think can help you improve your ball striking the most? Don't say yourself

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim

I mean no disrespect...but again your post says that you spent 20 hours with Brian and he is the greatest...what solid statistics in your own game can you offer to support your contention. Everyone can say that his or her teacher is the greatest but the proof should be the results that occur on the course over a period of time. And maybe I am placing to much burden on the teacher... maybe an efficent swing doesn't convert to better scoring.

I went from a 90s hacker (who could shoot 70s on a REALLY EASY COURSE) to someone who can break par on occassion when i don't even practice much at all.

My last round of last year, with a student consisted of i think 5-6 over on the front, just had soem bad breaks. The back nine i was 5 under after 6 holes, with a bogey and had to leave the course to go to work. This was not an easy course either.

If i had to "handicap" myself right now i'd say i'm low single digit with no practice. If i hit a lot of greens i can go under par, if i don't i'll shoot in the 70s somewhere because i don't practice much and lose the touch of my shortgame. Now i can't do it "on will" but i can keep up pretty good.

--------------

There are many people on this board who have seen me hit balls and they can tell you for themselves how well i can strike a ball.

 

[jbrunk]

You want results..............

HG, I copied this from a post I made last month about my results with Brian's teaching.


"This is long, and yes I am bragging.................on someone.

I have made myself a 6 handicap in 7 self taught years of well timed flipping. The last 3 years have been wrought with frustration so I turned to 3 teachers for help. I bought books by Butch Harmon, David Ledbetter and Jim Mclean. In 2004 I turned to BH to cure my heels/shanks/pushes/hooks.........he told me to swing inside the second ball......thanks Butch. In 2005 I turned to David Ledbetter for the same issues......he told me swing with my weight on my heels.......thanks Led. In 2006 I turned to Jim Mclean for yet again, the same issues.......he told me to hit the inside ball and inside tee........thanks Jimmy. In late 2006-2007 I have turned to Brian Manzella for the SAME issues. He told me to not let the face open, and to turn it off the plane coming down, and to full roll swivel with a flat left wrist......thanks Brian.

Today I played golf for the first time in 5 months at a course I have never broken 80 in 15 or so tries. This course is about 6600 yards and has water on 10 holes and OB on 12 holes.

Well I shot 78 with 2 missed 3 foot birdie putts, and 2 par 5's I got to in 2 that I 3 putted. We are talking 4 shots just thrown away. In a word, COMPRESSION BABY! No shanks, no heels and no pushes. Just to put this in more perspective my first rounds of the year in 2004,2005 and 2006 was 84, 82, 88 respectively.

Sure sounds like this Italian guy knows sumthin........thanks BMan. Oh and to Harmon, Ledbetter and Mclean.....thanks for leading me to the best golf teacher on the planet."

I haven't been able to play much this year due to the crazy weather, but my other 2 rounds of the year were 77 at the same course and 80 on a 30 mph wind day....oh and 39 putts. The change in shot quality with every club is indescribable. None of my scores in the last 4 years in April even come close to this years.

BTW, I haven't even had a live lesson with Brian. All of my changes to date have been via this website and some video I have submitted to him.

 

[kermitm]

otto6457

What did Brian do to correct your swing path and help you get your shoulders more open at impact?

 

[otto6457]

otto6457

What did Brian do to correct your swing path and help you get your shoulders more open at impact?

WOW!

It would take an hour to describe everything we worked on to get me where I need to be.

The drills that did the best at helping me get to where Brian was happy with my results were the "Hurdle" drill, and the "Joe Durant" drill. But those didn't work until I started getting my back swing more up and between my arms. That "Johnny Unitas" look. There was a lot of emphasis on my swinging more left and under the box (lower) and my belt buckle ahead of my hands and my left shoulder away from the ball.

I almost hate to tell someone what I have to work on because my fixes might be death to someone else. I am sure Brian or the other Manzella Instructors could explain better why my set of swing flaws required the drills I need to do, to get to where I need to be. Plus, while I might know what I am supposed to do in the drills, I don't think I can explain why they work.

One of the most interesting things in my working with Brian was how he had me try to do things that a guy with my problems can't do. It forced me to adjust to such a degree, I wasn't sure I could even hit the ball. The "Hurdle" drill was unbelievably hard for me at first. I felt like I was spastic or something. It looked so simple. I hit more "fat" shots in two days than in the last two years. My aim point for my hands has changed forever and my little brain is trying very hard to adjust.

I probably didn't answer your questions very well, but I don't feel like I am qualified to give you an answer that explains the 'why' I have to do what I do. And if I have made an error, I hope the guys will jump in and fix my mistakes. I AM rather new to this so I might not be the best example to try and understand.

 

[Jared Willerson]

WOW!

It would take an hour to describe everything we worked on to get me where I need to be.

The drills that did the best at helping me get to where Brian was happy with my results were the "Hurdle" drill, and the "Joe Durant" drill. But those didn't work until I started getting my back swing more up and between my arms. That "Johnny Unitas" look. There was a lot of emphasis on my swinging more left and under the box (lower) and my belt buckle ahead of my hands and my left shoulder away from the ball.

Brian, would these be "good player" fixes? I would like to learn more about both of these drills

 

[jbrunk]

WOW!

It would take an hour to describe everything we worked on to get me where I need to be.

The drills that did the best at helping me get to where Brian was happy with my results were the "Hurdle" drill, and the "Joe Durant" drill. But those didn't work until I started getting my back swing more up and between my arms. That "Johnny Unitas" look. There was a lot of emphasis on my swinging more left and under the box (lower) and my belt buckle ahead of my hands and my left shoulder away from the ball.

I almost hate to tell someone what I have to work on because my fixes might be death to someone else. I am sure Brian or the other Manzella Instructors could explain better why my set of swing flaws required the drills I need to do, to get to where I need to be. Plus, while I might know what I am supposed to do in the drills, I don't think I can explain why they work.

One of the most interesting things in my working with Brian was how he had me try to do things that a guy with my problems can't do. It forced me to adjust to such a degree, I wasn't sure I could even hit the ball. The "Hurdle" drill was unbelievably hard for me at first. I felt like I was spastic or something. It looked so simple. I hit more "fat" shots in two days than in the last two years. My aim point for my hands has changed forever and my little brain is trying very hard to adjust.

I probably didn't answer your questions very well, but I don't feel like I am qualified to give you an answer that explains the 'why' I have to do what I do. And if I have made an error, I hope the guys will jump in and fix my mistakes. I AM rather new to this so I might not be the best example to try and understand.

Sounds cool, I may be joining you at TT course one of the next few weekends. PM me with the times when you get a chance.

 

[forgedbladesgolf]

Ode to the Bluesman

So.....

Why am I not on TV? Why am I not on the TOP 100/50 lists? Why am I not teaching 20 Tour players? etc.

Well folks, it is a funny business, and we have talked about all of this many-a-time.

It is almost as if, HG, that you don't want it to be true. If that is the case, you are in a growing group of people that hope I am not as good as I, and as you can see, many others have said.






I have lived in Chicago for many years and would like to draw a parallel to to the big business of music to golf. For years I have followed many great blues musicians like Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, Koko Taylor, Buddy Guy, Son Seals, Lonnie Brooks watching these musicians play in relative unobscurity. They never went big time, until their music was validated by Clapton, Rolling Stones who took these musical roots and adapted their to their own form of music. The only time the blues musicians got their due, was from the respect given to them by a larger more well known segment of music.

I feel priviledged to have seen these musicians and always felt like I was seeing greatness in its pure form. Unhearlded greats doing something that came from the heart, playing music in its raw form.

I see Brian as a blues musician of golf, not looking to be discovered as the new thing, but playing in his club (Manzella Forum) for the true love of the golf swing. We are the rare few that are able to gather here and interact with an artist, who wants us to get better. I just don't believe Brian needs to be (discovered) by Tiger, Phil, etc.... he would rather be validated by his own accord and not some endorsement by a larger segment of the golf industry.
Until then, I will keep my table in the back and keep listening to his nightly performances.

 

[birdie_man]

(golf clap)

...

EDITTTTTTTTT:

--> I should make myself more clear.....I'll change it to: ENTHUSIASTIC GOLF CLAP.

(that is to say- I agree....and I'll also say- you have very good taste in music)

 

[Burner]

(golf clap)

Hope I never catch a dose of that.

Weren't you taking precautions?