Mickelson 7 iron from 198 uphill

[wpfisher]

I was getting more of the "hot ball" issue, not clubs. Obviously a tour professional isn't playing off the rack clubs. Any amateur with enough money can get a club built any way he wants it too. Just like everything else in business, it boils down to money. If one equipment company has a ball that is conforming and goes a lot farther, then most companies have a similar ball. And if mutliple companies have a "legal juiced" ball, then one of them would be bound to sell it to the general public. And if one of them did this, then all the other companies would quickly follow suit. Now, if the tour balls that you say are different are NOT conforming, then thats a different issue. Obviously no equipment companies are going to sell a version of their ball that anyone could have tested to prove that its illegal.

So are you saying that all of the equipment companies have legal juiced balls, but NONE of them want to make all the extra profit that would come from marketing such a ball to the general public? Or are you saying that some/all tour players use nonconforming balls?

Again, let me state that these are the best players in the world and without this conspiracy theory, the are still the best. Tiger or Phil could probably shoot 7 under on any course with a $100 set from Walmart. This is just my opinion, but the reason that tour equipment is not for sale to the general public is due to the fact club manufacturers WANT you to believe the pros are playing the same exact stuff just with modified lofts, lies, shafts swing weights, etc. It would be insanely expensive to make clubs to the same playability and meticulous tolerances as the professionals. Besides, they think to a 10 or 15 handicap, the equipment will not make that much of a difference. Are the designs the same, yes. But the simple fact that tour issue clubs and balls are built in different factories and retail versions are made elsewhere sounds fishy. For instance, the some of the irons on tour are forged at the Muira or ENDO plants in Japan. The retail versions are forged elsewhere in the far east, in China and Thailand. That wouldnt be a big deal if the tolerances for the product were the same. The Muira and Endo plant throw out tons of clubs deemed unfit. The other plants do not practice this, instead building sets in the most practical and cost effective manor. Tha means you may get two 6 irons in a set, with one bent some and stamped with a 7 on it; I have heard of this happening before.


If it was commonly known that Golfsmith, Edwin Watts, etc could not give you what Tiger Woods, Adam Scott or Phil Mickelson plays, club manufacturers would have a problem. They would have to answer to this, and probably start building better, or atleast admit there are differences in the two, which all have denied untill today. That is why Callaway has come out with a Tour Authentic line, which is to fill this void in the market of people wanting legitimate tour issue equipment. Now is this tour authentic line the same as actual tour issue. I am still unsure about that. If it is and somehow prove it, Callaway can now sell their equipment for a more substantial profit to those seeking "better" equipment.

 

[wpfisher]

Also, let me make clear that the "better" equipment, atleast in my mind is USGA conforming. The balls and clubs that are "juiced" go right up to the legal tolerances and not past. That is why I say only 5 -15 yards on irons, and maybe 15 yards on driver. Brian I suppose could answer that better. And since the reverse is true, you may get a driver or ball off the rack that is hot, but would be deemed illegal because it is not conforming.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Just to expand on wpfisher's post....a perfect example of custom irons on tour to make the general public want to buy/play them was the Cleveland CG4 Tour Irons. They got a decent amount of play on tour however did you know that they weren't made of CMM and were a forged iron that had much less offset, a slightly different shape/sole, but similar design in the cavity? You can find these floating around the net and ebay once in a while called "C" stamped CG4 Tours.

Also, Endo forges all of Titleist and Bridgestone's retail irons that i know, probably others too but i'm not sure (i *think* nike as well). From what i understand Mirua is not in the business of doing stuff for the tour these days; they stopped doing heavy tour stuff a few years ago to focus on promoting their brand; Mirua.

However some of the best irons i have ever hit were Miura made irons for US OEM companies; specifically Taylormade 300s (even some of these made it to retail) and the Taylormade RAC TP heads that i believe brian played at some point.

 

[thefuture37]

At some point, they will.

I can even buy the vastly superior "Mexican" Coke at Kroger now.

If you like that you might try dublin dr pepper. As far as I know, the us govt doesn't subsidize anything that would keep a better tour golf ball off the public market though, so I don't see the sugar/hfcs analogy applicable to the argument.

 

[Brian Manzella]

You didn't get the football analogy, did ya?

OK.

Titliest PRO V1.

Test 100. Some are more balanced than others. Some longer.

Get it now?

 

[wpfisher]

Just to expand on wpfisher's post....a perfect example of custom irons on tour to make the general public want to buy/play them was the Cleveland CG4 Tour Irons. They got a decent amount of play on tour however did you know that they weren't made of CMM and were a forged iron that had much less offset, a slightly different shape/sole, but similar design in the cavity? You can find these floating around the net and ebay once in a while called "C" stamped CG4 Tours.

Also, Endo forges all of Titleist and Bridgestone's retail irons that i know, probably others too but i'm not sure (i *think* nike as well). From what i understand Mirua is not in the business of doing stuff for the tour these days; they stopped doing heavy tour stuff a few years ago to focus on promoting their brand; Mirua.

However some of the best irons i have ever hit were Miura made irons for US OEM companies; specifically Taylormade 300s (even some of these made it to retail) and the Taylormade RAC TP heads that i believe brian played at some point.

I didn't know that about Muira. I have heard they make some of the best forged irons.

 

[birdie_man]

Jim what do PING staffers play? With respect to retail vs. "tour issue" of the same name iron.

i.e. is there a S58 retail and then a tour-only S58, for example.

OK.

Titliest PRO V1.

Test 100. Some are more balanced than others. Some longer.

Get it now?

I always thought Wilson's "True" golf balls were a good idea.........for consistency..........or piece of mind if nothing else.

 

[birdie_man]

I was getting more of the "hot ball" issue, not clubs. Obviously a tour professional isn't playing off the rack clubs. Any amateur with enough money can get a club built any way he wants it too. Just like everything else in business, it boils down to money. If one equipment company has a ball that is conforming and goes a lot farther, then most companies have a similar ball. And if mutliple companies have a "legal juiced" ball, then one of them would be bound to sell it to the general public. And if one of them did this, then all the other companies would quickly follow suit. Now, if the tour balls that you say are different are NOT conforming, then thats a different issue. Obviously no equipment companies are going to sell a version of their ball that anyone could have tested to prove that its illegal.

So are you saying that all of the equipment companies have legal juiced balls, but NONE of them want to make all the extra profit that would come from marketing such a ball to the general public? Or are you saying that some/all tour players use nonconforming balls?

Are these "juiced" balls just normal ones that they have tested out of a batch and found to be for some reason better? (i.e. a result of manufacturing tolerances)

If this is the case then maybe they don't want to draw any attention to the fact that their normal balls are the "rejects." (in a sense) Esp. if they can convince 99% of people that their current retail is the same as tour anyway...

Just ideas...I'm no business expert.

At some point, they will.

I can even buy the vastly superior "Mexican" Coke at Kroger now.

Mexican Coke??? (Tour Issue Coke) What's the difference?

 

[thefuture37]

Are these "juiced" balls just normal ones that they have tested out of a batch and found to be for some reason better? (i.e. a result of manufacturing tolerances)

If this is the case then maybe they don't want to draw any attention to the fact that their normal balls are the "rejects." (in a sense) Esp. if they can convince 99% of people that their current retail is the same as tour anyway...

Just ideas...I'm no business expert.



Mexican Coke??? (Tour Issue Coke) What's the difference?

I guess thats what Brian means. If thats the case, then its a matter of precision and consistency, rather than the tour balls being a certain amount "better" than retail. In that case, a tour player could certainly benefit from having a more consistent ball, but that doesn't justify the assertion that tour balls go further than retail.

mexican coke and dublin dr pepper(referred to as "real" dr pepper in texas) use real sugar as a sweetener rather than high fructose corn syrup, which is used to sweeten 99.99% of sodas in the US. When the govt started subsidizing corn, HFCS became alot cheaper than real sugar, so everyone switched, despite the loss of taste. In Mexico, theres no subsidy, so sugar is still cheaper there.

 

[birdie_man]

Ya it seems there is a lot of this pro vs. retail stuff going on out there......

I had a snowmobile racer tell me once that they did the same thing with their machines (I think Yamaha)..........they would test a bunch of the same machine and find some that for some reason were just better and faster.

My cousin is one of the top x-country skiers in the country at her age (Team Canada National Development Team) and her coach goes to the Peltonen factory to pick out skis for her.

Etc. etc. etc., I am sure.

Mmmm Mexican Coke.......interesting.

 

[pecky987]

Jim what do PING staffers play? With respect to retail vs. "tour issue" of the same name iron.

i.e. is there a S58 retail and then a tour-only S58, for example.



I always thought Wilson's "True" golf balls were a good idea.........for consistency..........or piece of mind if nothing else.

as far as i know all ping irons, retail and tour, are all made in the same factory to the same tolerances. so in theory if someone purchases the new S57 irons, they'll be using the same irons as the tour players

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

as far as i know all ping irons, retail and tour, are all made in the same factory to the same tolerances. so in theory if someone purchases the new S57 irons, they'll be using the same irons as the tour players

Correct with the following exception:

Any other work that the Ping WRX department might perform for a particular player HOWEVER that particular "work" any average joe can pay for as well.

For instance, Ping even offers a service on some of their iron heads to "press out" some of the offset for people who like lower offset heads. Also you can custom order ping heads that are digitally measured for loft (not sure about face angle though).

I think you can even download their catalog of what the WRX department can do but i think you have to go through your local dealer or call Ping for pricing.