Mid Body Hands & on-plane takeaway

[fronesis]

As my swing has changed over the past 6 months I've gradually incorporated pretty much all elements of what we might call the 'Manzella setup'. In prior swing patterns I had a very strong grip, and therefore set up at address with the hands well forward. I now have neutral grip and mid-body hands, but I realised recently that while I usually kept my hands mid-body (though they sometimes creep up slightly) that this was leading me to let my ball position slide back in my stance. In other words, having the shaft lean back at address still looks odd to me, so instead of changing my hand position (since I am convinced by Brian's argument for a setup in which the butt of the club points toward one's belly button) I had let my ball position creep backward.

Today I worked on the range and played 10 holes (before the gale blew in!) and moving the ball forward in my stance was definitely a needed adjustment. However, I hit a lot more shots right than I have hit it in months and, in general, had a few erratic shots.

After the round I realised the problem: with the shaft leaning back at address I was taking the club away above plane (and my missed shots were a result of being above plane). For whatever reason, this setup position made it harder for me to take the club back on-plane as I have been doing well for months simply by bending the right wrist straight back. There's something about having the hands behind the ball that had me bringing the club outside and up too quickly; it feels as if I can't just bend the right wrist, as doing so would stick the back of the club in the ground. I'm used to having the clubhead move inside a bit, as it's already behind the hands slightly with a forward hand position at address.

So, my question: what's the best way to initiate a take-away when setup with mid-body hands in order to make sure to keep the club on plane (and particularly to avoid taking the club back outside the path and above plane)?

[Sorry, I should have been able to ask the question in fewer words!!!]

 

[pecky987]

lagging clubhead takeaway. like the old guys with hickory shafts used to do. it will fell very strange and you probably wont end up with a full lagging clubhead take away, becasue you are so used to a 'carry back' where the right wrist bends imediately. it is basically where the hands lead the clubhead goin back. this is the best wayto take the club back on plane and not pick it up too quickly

 

[fronesis]

Thanks pecky. Yes, I'm familiar with a lagging clubhead takeaway - have seen Brian's videos where this is discussed and also read some of the threads. But in one of those previous threads Brian makes it clear that mid-body hands does not mandate a lagging takeaway. So I'm wondering what other principles are involved and if I have other takeaway options available to me. It's clear that the change to mid-body hands (with proper ball position) means that I need to rethink my takeaway a bit and that the lagging takeaway is one good possibility. Just wondering if there are other options as well?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hmmm...

"Step on your right foot," as you make a sharp turn of your hips, while the butt of the club stays the same distance from your belt."


Very "Soft Draw."

 

[flapro]

With hands mid body there is a tendency to take the club back outside the ball to target line.
with hands slightly ahead of mid body, the takeaway is much easier for a one plane swing. Jim Hardy talks about mid body hands for the one planers but he also advocates much flatter backswing and while keeping the weight more centered rather than risking swaying, he advocates more hip turn.
I find I need to get that right hip out of the way to allow for better pivot.

 

[tourdeep]

With hands mid body there is a tendency to take the club back outside the ball to target line.
with hands slightly ahead of mid body, the takeaway is much easier for a one plane swing. One instructor talks about mid body hands for the one planers but he also advocates much flatter backswing and while keeping the weight more centered rather than risking swaying, he advocates more hip turn.
I find I need to get that right hip out of the way to allow for better pivot.

Let me give this a try. It may sound like a play on your words, but knowing that type of swing you described, this is what I found...

With mid body hands, the hands may have a tendency of going outside the target line if the hips remain quiet. If the butt end of the club remains constant ("club stays same distance from belt")with the turn of the hips (maybe shoulder/torso too), it may be easier to trace that line to a point.

At that point, somewhere prior to the club being parallel with the ground, my left wrist start to flatten and my right wrist will bend to maintain that target line. The distance to the belt buckle will deviate.

If it remains more of a one piece takeaway, wrist angles retained deeper in the takeaway and same distance from the belt, it becomes a more flat takeaway, not that there's anything wrong with that!

There may be a misconception about weight transfer versus swaying. Maybe moving around a more firm trail leg (ben Hoganish) as opposed to a sloppy peg is a lot of the issue. Speaking of Ben, although there has been talk of his restricted hip movement, this is clearly not the case. It is restricted to the extent of the firm trail leg as the hip appears to move freely around his right leg.

.02 (maybe less with exchange rate)

 

[curtisj76]

"Step on your right foot," as you make a sharp turn of your hips, while the butt of the club stays the same distance from your belt."


Very "Soft Draw."

This is an old post but does anyone know what Brian is saying exactly? Also how does this help your takeaway to be more on plane? My swing is as good as it's ever been except my takeaway gets out and up right off the bat. Any help would be great. Thanks

PS Also curious about the "very soft draw" comment...

-Curtis

 

[fronesis]

It's all about the hips!

This was my original question long ago, and this was a GREAT series of responses. But if you read back through them you'll notice one consistent theme: you've got to turn the hips on the backswing.

I would put it this way - in perhaps overly simplistic and certainly non-TGM language: a proper on-plane takeaway requires that the hands, arms and body all move together. Getting above plane or outside the line (my old problem and your current problem) is often caused by moving the arms before or without turning the hips sharply.

If 'the butt of the club stays the same distance from your belt' and the pivot is being powered (or at least initiated) by the turn of the hips, then you'll be on plane.

 

[curtisj76]

Thanks, I'll be working on my hips.