More distance = less accuracy? any science

[ej20]

Think of Roger Federer.I would say he would have just about the perfect service technique.

Now would he get his first serve in play more than his second?

 

[SteveT]

ej20 ... you threadjacking ..??!!!

 

[ej20]

ej20 ... you threadjacking ..??!!!

what was the topic again?...i forget

 

[Frans@France]

Do know of any data revealing how much the Smash Factor is affected with different Impacts and different driver head specs ... more than 21% ??!!!

maybe it's my english or your cut/paste action of the quote?

Learning to hit the sweetspot and therefor achiving a smashfactor of 1.49 will create a ball speed of 134 mph. And because it's the ballspeed to counts for distance those 8 mph with the SAME swingspeed will give you lots more distance.

If that golfer would then also learn to hit up with his driver, therefor having less spin, using a less lofted driver which increases the maximum smashfactor he would have gained more then trying to produce 21% more kinetic energy

maybe the sentences are to long

 

[SteveT]

^^^Frans@France^^^ ..... Yes, I understand what you are saying, but what I want to know from you is do you have any numbers on changes in Smash Factor with impact off the sweetspot by 10, 15, 20 millimeters? Also with different driver face lofts? That would quantify your descriptive claims.

I have explained my 21% change in KE ... all I'm asking is how much the SF changes when off the SP ... nothing sinister ...

 

[Frans@France]

^^^Frans@France^^^ ..... Yes, I understand what you are saying, but what I want to know from you is do you have any numbers on changes in Smash Factor with impact off the sweetspot by 10, 15, 20 millimeters? Also with different driver face lofts? That would quantify your descriptive claims.

I have explained my 21% change in KE ... all I'm asking is how much the SF changes when off the SP ... nothing sinister ...

Ok, I thought you were trying to be a smartass. Some of the posting you post over here are correct and I therefor assumed you already know the answer to that question as it is "common" knowledge.

Best answer I can give : It depends on the design of the head (face).It's COR around the sweetspot, the gearfactor effect on non-centre shots and roll.

Maybe nice to read http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter3.pdf ?

It explains the relation between smashfactor and spinloft, also on page 3 there is a nice list of cor around the sweetspot.

 

[mdjosh]

keep in mind that the Kinetic energy equation is not a linear equation. The previous example of increasing speed from 100-110. While the clubhead does have 21% more kinetic energy the golfer only had to increase the force applied to it by 10% (F=ma). A golfer does not "generate kinetic energy" as energy can neither be created or destroyed. In any human motion chemical energy in the bonds of ATP is used to contract muscles which will result in movement. The key is to train one's muscles for power. Power training focuses on teaching the muscles of the body to contract more forcefully in a shorter period of time and this is something that can be developed. Yes, everyone has their own limitations but this type of focused training can maximize the natural gifts we have been given.

 

[sharkey35]

These posts kind of highlight my original question. Frans says hit the sweetspot more often and get a better smash factor for more distance - makes sense but it doesn't mean that learning to swing faster will result in poorer contact and a lower SF. But many assume this will be the case.

SteveT says, in essense, don't bother trying to train for more speed unless you are out of shape. I'm 46 y.o. and in pretty good shape. 5'10", 155 lbs, kettlebell classes 2 to 3 X a week, yoga for a number of years. I really don't think my shape is holding me back. BUT, driver ss of only 95 to 100 (at best). I've always felt like the ball and the clubs "work" better at the higher speed.

MDJosh says speed can be trained or developed and I wonder if there has to be a tradeoff in accuracy. Another site says there shouldn't be, that and increase speed requires more efficiency, thus better fundamentals for direction as well.

My thought is to do something this winter to at least try to gain some speed and distance. I'm just really afraid of losing what I've gained as far as a pattern at this point.

Maybe I'm thinking too much and should just try it, but with limited time to work on the game, looking for best bang for the time investmented.

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Bigwill]

These posts kind of highlight my original question. Frans says hit the sweetspot more often and get a better smash factor for more distance - makes sense but it doesn't mean that learning to swing faster will result in poorer contact and a lower SF. But many assume this will be the case.

SteveT says, in essense, don't bother trying to train for more speed unless you are out of shape. I'm 46 y.o. and in pretty good shape. 5'10", 155 lbs, kettlebell classes 2 to 3 X a week, yoga for a number of years. I really don't think my shape is holding me back. BUT, driver ss of only 95 to 100 (at best). I've always felt like the ball and the clubs "work" better at the higher speed.

MDJosh says speed can be trained or developed and I wonder if there has to be a tradeoff in accuracy. Another site says there shouldn't be, that and increase speed requires more efficiency, thus better fundamentals for direction as well.

My thought is to do something this winter to at least try to gain some speed and distance. I'm just really afraid of losing what I've gained as far as a pattern at this point.

Maybe I'm thinking too much and should just try it, but with limited time to work on the game, looking for best bang for the time investmented.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Go ahead. I don't think that gaining speed equals losing accurately. But I do think that it can be easier to mishit the ball swinging at the limits of your capabilities, so you can lose distance that way, which may be why most people play better swinging at less than 100% (but that is not to say that they are swinging easy).

The thing is, if you increase your all-out speed, then your on course in-control speed will probably be higher as well.

 

[ZAP]

I agree with Bigwill....If you can increase what your maximum is then you can swing faster "under control" if you will.
The human body is amazingly plastic and trainable up to a certain point. Who knows if you have reached your power limit unless you have done extensive power/speed training. And most of us can learn to use the ground better.

 

[SteveT]

Best answer I can give : It depends on the design of the head (face).It's COR around the sweetspot, the gear factor effect on non-centre shots and roll.

Maybe nice to read http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter3.pdf ?

It explains the relation between smashfactor and spinloft, also on page 3 there is a nice list of cor around the sweetspot.

Thank you for that reference, mon p'tit choux ... and it certainly answers my question posed to you. However, the issue is Kinetic Energy versus Smash Factor, and from the TM article we get this comparison:

For a 100 mph clubhead speed and a change in SF from 1.40 to 1.48, ball speed will increase from 140 mph to 145 mph. This equates to an additional 10 yards carry, and this example would be illustrative of a good golfer's change.

Now a 21% increase in Kinetic Energy would result in a clubhead speed change from 91 mph to 100 mph and a 18 yard carry increase ... all other things being equal.

So my suggestion that an increase of KE would be significant is correct, moreso than a change to Smash Factor it would appear. Now how does one achieve a 10% club speed - 21% KE increase within one's body???

 

[SteveT]

SteveT says, in essense(sic), don't bother trying to train for more speed unless you are out of shape. I'm 46 y.o. and in pretty good shape. 5'10", 155 lbs, kettlebell classes 2 to 3 X a week, yoga for a number of years. I really don't think my shape is holding me back. BUT, driver ss of only 95 to 100 (at best). I've always felt like the ball and the clubs "work" better at the higher speed.

My thought is to do something this winter to at least try to gain some speed and distance. I'm just really afraid of losing what I've gained as far as a pattern at this point.

Maybe I'm thinking too much and should just try it, but with limited time to work on the game, looking for best bang for the time investmented(sic).

Maybe you are doing the wrong conditioning with your beautiful body with your kettlebell heaving and arm twirling!!

How about some core conditioning with twisting exercises, you know, like with the golf swing. Perhaps you are neglecting your leg strength that launches your hip rotation ... and then the hip momentum must flow to your shoulders through your midsection in a somewhat circular fashion. Okay, kettlebells will help firm up your belly, but it's usually done in a vertical almost planar motion but what about the circular motion? Learn to twirl your body for a powerful golf swing. Bodies torque, arms and clubs only swing.

If you want to improve your arm coordination this winter, throw a lot of snowballs and shovel a lot ...

 

[Frans@France]

Thank you for that reference, mon p'tit choux ... and it certainly answers my question posed to you. However, the issue is Kinetic Energy versus Smash Factor, and from the TM article we get this comparison:

For a 100 mph clubhead speed and a change in SF from 1.40 to 1.48, ball speed will increase from 140 mph to 145 mph. This equates to an additional 10 yards carry, and this example would be illustrative of a good golfer's change.

euhh.... ball speed from 140mph to 148 mph....equates....16 yards

Now a 21% increase in Kinetic Energy would result in a clubhead speed change from 91 mph to 100 mph and a 18 yard carry increase ... all other things being equal.

euhh.....

with SF 1.4 and swing 91 mph --> ball speed 127.4
swing 100 mph same SF --> ball speed 140 mph
difference 12.6 mph...equates to..... 25.2 yards

however where is that ball going those 25 yards? It will not be a straight shot where as the 1.48 will.

So my suggestion that an increase of KE would be significant is correct, moreso than a change to Smash Factor it would appear. Now how does one achieve a 10% club speed - 21% KE increase within one's body???

If you not already have a good smashfactor I would go for improving the swing before any thing else.... No need to slice it 40 yard instead of 20 yard with the possible new found swingspeed but bad contact

If the smashfactor is already in the 1.47 and higher I would test a longer driver to see if the contact quality stays good. In fact I would still would continue to see if I can create even beter launch parameters. Don't you think that hitting up 5 degree's would be easier to achive then gaining significant more swingspeed?

 

[SteveT]

euhh.... ball speed from 140mph to 148 mph....equates....16 yards

Sorry, should have directed you to the example in the TM News article you referred me to, specifically Page 01 (.pdf page 2), where they calculate the change in SF equates to only 10 yard extra.

euhh..... with SF 1.4 and swing 91 mph --> ball speed 127.4
swing 100 mph same SF --> ball speed 140 mph
difference 12.6 mph...equates to..... 25.2 yards

however where is that ball going those 25 yards? It will not be a straight shot where as the 1.48 will.

Thank you for correcting my mistake, what was I thinking ... ??!!!


So now the change in SF only provides a 10 yard increase, whereas a 10% swing speed (and 21% extra KE) will provide an additional 25 yards.

I hope this comparison meets with your approval ... and disregarding the control of the swing and club.

 

[Frans@France]

Sorry, should have directed you to the example in the TM News article you referred me to, specifically Page 01 (.pdf page 2), where they calculate the change in SF equates to only 10 yard extra.



Thank you for correcting my mistake, what was I thinking ... ??!!!


So now the change in SF only provides a 10 yard increase, whereas a 10% swing speed (and 21% extra KE) will provide an additional 25 yards.

I hope this comparison meets with your approval ... and disregarding the control of the swing and club.

The calculations I gave you are correct. it's 16 against 25 yards and a difference in ball flight.

The reason you miscalculated the ballspeed was because in the article they let the person slow down his swing in order to generate a beter contact.

Here is the quote from the newsletter.

Let me give you an example. With a club speed of 100 mph and a smash factor of 1.40, the ball speed is 140 mph. But if the golfer could obtain a smash factor of 1.48 with a more controlled swing having a lower club speed of 98 mph, the ball speed would be increased to 145 mph – i.e. an additional 5 mph ball speed by swinging slower. Since 1 more mph ball speed (all other things equal) will generate 2 more yards carry, an extra 10 yards is added to the drive in this case by swinging with more control! Further, the more controlled swing will most likely have a very positive effect on dispersion.