My current swing......

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Mathew

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Myswing.jpg


So what ya think.... - I would appreciate all comments, analysis but im esp looking for Brian and Yoda's (holenone) the most...(It really would be a priveledge :)) Ideas of what I should study in TGM that would most improve my game...

PS- This is my trusty 8 iron I use whenever I make changes....
 
H

hue

New
Mathew : You can see you have been working on your leg and hip action. Those areas are looking much better as a result you now have more axis tilt. Also your trai shoulder is much lower than it was at impact. I will be interested to see what the REAL experts make of it but as far as I am concerned it is onwards and upwards.
 
H

holenone

Banned
Mathew,

There is a lot to like here -- especially your Fanning and Folding Right Elbow during Start Up (Frames 2-3); your Extensor Action (throughout); your Left and Right Wrist Alignments at the Top (Frame 6); and your Impact Alignments and Extension (Frames 9-11).

But, since you've asked, here are five things I'd look at:

1. Head Position. Move your Head into the middle of your stance and keep it there! Your Head and Feet should form an isosceles triangle (two equal sides), not a right triangle (one right angle). You should be able to drop a plumb bob from your chin into the precise middle of your Stance. Your Head is higher at Address than it will be at Impact, and this necessitates a Bob (Vertical Head Motion) during the Downstroke.

2. Grip and Arm Position. It is difficult to tell from the photos, but I suspect your Left Hand Grip is a bit 'weak,' i.e., Rolled to the left of Vertical. Your Right Arm appears too straight. There should be a definite 'bend' at the Elbow, and the Forearm should point at the Plane Line (instead of well inside it).

3. Eliminate the Sway (lateral Head Motion) and Bob. In Frame 1 your Head is as far right of center as it should ever be...and then you Sway (all the way over to your Right Foot in Frame 6)! You nearly recover your original position (Frames 6-7). Though still too far to the right, your position in Frame 11 bears a remarkable resemblance to the great Billy Casper in his prime. And then you completely lose your Head Position vertically and Bob (Frames 9-11).

4. Stroke Geometry. You need to establish a more geometrically correct Low Point. That's why there is no divot: Your starting Head Position and your Sway has put your Low Point (opposite the Left Shoulder) well inside your Left Heel. And this means a 'false orbit' of the Club. Hence the 'Sweep:' You are hitting 'up' instead of driving 'down.' Again, the 'bad guy' is your starting Head positon. Fix that and you fix your Clubhead Orbit. You are just too good everywhere else!

5. The Finish. The good news is that your Head has finally moved into a more 'Centered' position -- close to where it should have been all along. The bad news is that it is 'Pivot-Controlled Hands' per Harmon-Woods/Scott (Exaggerated Hip Slide, Locked Left Leg, and contorted Head Position). Better than the old 'Nicklaus' inspired 'Reverse C' to be sure -- but still a far cry from what is most natural and most geometrically correct. Actually, you combine the exaggerated 'Reverse C' of the Nicklaus era (Frame 11) with the exaggerated 'Model' Finish of the Woods era (Frame 12). That took some talent, my young friend!

And just where should a correct 'Hands-Controlled Pivot' Finish take you?

Let's fix that Head Position and see!
 
D

densikat

New
Yoda:

The locked left leg at finish is not desirable?

Could you name a few players who you believe have close to geometrically good finishes?

Would Hogan be close?
 
R

Ringer

New
My advice from a non-TGM perspective.. So you probably will leave it where it lay's :D

Setup: The ball appears a bit too far back in your stance... unless you intend on creating a lower, more penatrating trajectory.. in which case it's fine. You look well balanced over your feet, but I suggest you actually bump your knees slightly outward.. kind of like you're riding a horse. Get your knees over your feet, not between them. That will help stablize your lower body movement.

Transition: It appears that you are swinging your arms well further than they need to go. I realize many players have their hands above their head at the top, but I'd like to see you start showing your lag here by loosening up your wrists a bit (you look stiff and tense), and by keeping your arms in front of your chest. That is really quite simple to accomplish if you give yourself the intention of trying to touch the toe of the clubhead to your right shoulder at the top (without letting go of the grip). Just look at Hogan at the top and you'll see what I mean.

Impact: You look pretty good for where your ball position is... but it appears you tend to stay on your right side just a hair bit too long.

Finish: It appears you have a tad bit of weight being put on that back foot... the slight arching back puts you there. But this is only very very slightly and does not worry me at this point... it COULD lead to problems if it got any further.

So there ya go... a non-TGM reply that will probably go by the wayside this time tomorrow :D
 
M

Mathew

Banned
quote:Originally posted by hue

Mathew : You can see you have been working on your leg and hip action. Those areas are looking much better as a result you now have more axis tilt. Also your trai shoulder is much lower than it was at impact. I will be interested to see what the REAL experts make of it but as far as I am concerned it is onwards and upwards.
Click to expand...

Thanks Hue - Where I have been working on my leg and hip movements mostly on the backswing... and it has really helped me become more centered. It isn't totally there yet but it is in a better direction...

You can see that I have managed to 'clear the right hip' in this sequence rather than prior.....

TOBcopy.jpg
 
M

Mathew

Banned
quote:Originally posted by holenone

Mathew,

There is a lot to like here -- especially your Fanning and Folding Right Elbow during Start Up (Frames 2-3); your Extensor Action (throughout); your Left and Right Wrist Alignments at the Top (Frame 6); and your Impact Alignments and Extension (Frames 9-11).

But, since you've asked, here are five things I'd look at:

1. Head Position. Move your Head into the middle of your stance and keep it there! Your Head and Feet should form an isosceles triangle (two equal sides), not a right triangle (one right angle). You should be able to drop a plumb bob from your chin into the precise middle of your Stance. Your Head is higher at Address than it will be at Impact, and this necessitates a Bob (Vertical Head Motion) during the Downstroke.

2. Grip and Arm Position. It is difficult to tell from the photos, but I suspect your Left Hand Grip is a bit 'weak,' i.e., Rolled to the left of Vertical. Your Right Arm appears too straight. There should be a definite 'bend' at the Elbow, and the Forearm should point at the Plane Line (instead of well inside it).

3. Eliminate the Sway (lateral Head Motion) and Bob. In Frame 1 your Head is as far right of center as it should ever be...and then you Sway (all the way over to your Right Foot in Frame 6)! You nearly recover your original position (Frames 6-7). Though still too far to the right, your position in Frame 11 bears a remarkable resemblance to the great Billy Casper in his prime. And then you completely lose your Head Position vertically and Bob (Frames 9-11).

4. Stroke Geometry. You need to establish a more geometrically correct Low Point. That's why there is no divot: Your starting Head Position and your Sway has put your Low Point (opposite the Left Shoulder) well inside your Left Heel. And this means a 'false orbit' of the Club. Hence the 'Sweep:' You are hitting 'up' instead of driving 'down.' Again, the 'bad guy' is your starting Head positon. Fix that and you fix your Clubhead Orbit. You are just too good everywhere else!

5. The Finish. The good news is that your Head has finally moved into a more 'Centered' position -- close to where it should have been all along. The bad news is that it is 'Pivot-Controlled Hands' per Harmon-Woods/Scott (Exaggerated Hip Slide, Locked Left Leg, and contorted Head Position). Better than the old 'Nicklaus' inspired 'Reverse C' to be sure -- but still a far cry from what is most natural and most geometrically correct. Actually, you combine the exaggerated 'Reverse C' of the Nicklaus era (Frame 11) with the exaggerated 'Model' Finish of the Woods era (Frame 12). That took some talent, my young friend!

And just where should a correct 'Hands-Controlled Pivot' Finish take you?

Let's fix that Head Position and see!
Click to expand...

WOW Yoda - Can I start bowing now and saying I am not worthy waynes world syle! !

Feel like a young Jedi just getting advice the great master Yoda himself !

What I love about your posts is because you are such a knowledgable person and that you add such positivity to the posts mixed with that highly developed sence of humour :).

The references to Woods are very interesting. Mainly because growing up he was my swing model after my leadbetter/faldo era after getting one of the few golf digests I cherish which had Woods at every camera angle and giving his pointers to the images. I always had that excessive finish after copying him (and this is it actually tamed - With a driver in my old swing - the flexability was a sight to be seen yet the shot nessesarily wasn't...).. Perhaps ill look out an old photo later...

Infact the address with the head location is a revelation for me too. Again a Tiger Woods artical when I was young and first learning the swing "get behind to stay behind" has always stuck..... So here im a little behind...

Your intuition on the grip is totally correct - as you can see on the picture above in responce to Hue... you can see that the clubface doesn't match the left hand....

My stroke geometry and the orbit which really strikes a chord here... Many time I will take a practice swing 'any ol how' and thats can be where my divot is... Yet when a ball is in front - I will always hit it...lol


I can guarantee this is what ill be working on when next go to play :)
 
P

Powerdraw

New
quote:Originally posted by Ringer

My advice from a non-TGM perspective.. So you probably will leave it where it lay's :D

Setup: The ball appears a bit too far back in your stance... unless you intend on creating a lower, more penatrating trajectory.. in which case it's fine. You look well balanced over your feet, but I suggest you actually bump your knees slightly outward.. kind of like you're riding a horse. Get your knees over your feet, not between them. That will help stablize your lower body movement.

Transition: It appears that you are swinging your arms well further than they need to go. I realize many players have their hands above their head at the top, but I'd like to see you start showing your lag here by loosening up your wrists a bit (you look stiff and tense), and by keeping your arms in front of your chest. That is really quite simple to accomplish if you give yourself the intention of trying to touch the toe of the clubhead to your right shoulder at the top (without letting go of the grip). Just look at Hogan at the top and you'll see what I mean.

Impact: You look pretty good for where your ball position is... but it appears you tend to stay on your right side just a hair bit too long.

Finish: It appears you have a tad bit of weight being put on that back foot... the slight arching back puts you there. But this is only very very slightly and does not worry me at this point... it COULD lead to problems if it got any further.

So there ya go... a non-TGM reply that will probably go by the wayside this time tomorrow :D
Click to expand...

...my my Ringer...i know you know your stuff...you'd be surprised how some or all of what you are saying translates into TGM...the only difference is cause and means and means and cause...keep it up!;)
 
H

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by densikat

Yoda:

The locked left leg at finish is not desirable?

Could you name a few players who you believe have close to geometrically good finishes?

Would Hogan be close?
Click to expand...

At no time should the Straightened Leg -- Left or Right -- be permitted to lock 'beyond center' (7-16). That is because the subsequent unlocking is disruptive.

It could be argued that, "At the Finish, the Ball is long gone, so what does it matter?" And the answer is that for every action, there must first be a preparatory action. And the preparatory action for the Locked Knee Finish is most likely to occur during the Impact Interval. When that happens, the Left Hip slants upward to its extreme, and this makes the proper Three Dimensional Impact -- especially the already problematic Downward Dimension -- just that much more difficult to achieve.

Regarding good 'model' finishes on the current scene, I have not made the effort I made in my younger years to analyze the top players. Therefore, there are many on this site more qualified than I to respond. For starters, Brian and Redgoat, and it would be interesting to hear from them. In 'my day,' you couldn't go wrong copying that trio of 'Anti-Reverse C's:' Roberto DiVencenzo, Lee Trevino and -- this might surprise you -- Chi Chi Rodriquez.

In the generation prior, your nomination of Ben Hogan fills the bill nicely. And for those 'across the pond,' let's not forget five-time British Open Champion, Peter Thompson. Finally, from the early days of the PGA TOUR, Wild Bill Mehlhorn, the man Hogan called, "The best ball striker I have ever seen."
 
D

denny.

New
Wild Bill Melhorn---- the one who instructed to pt. your rt. thumb in your left ear at the finish. Your age is showing ! How good was Johnny Bulla's swing?
 
H

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by denny.

Wild Bill Melhorn---- the one who instructed to pt. your rt. thumb in your left ear at the finish. Your age is showing ! How good was Johnny Bulla's swing?
Click to expand...

How good was Johnny Bulla's swing? Doesn't matter. He sold a lot of autograph left-handed clubs for Sears, Roebuck -- one set of which my Dad bought -- and paid his dues riding shotgun in Sam Snead's DeSoto between Tour stops. Let's raise one to Johnny B.!
 
P

pixie

New
holenone,
you mentioned that the head is in the center (between the feet) at address.
I just want to confirm... do you want to see the head at the center at impact?

What is it that makes having your head un-centered that makes the orbit too much "hitting up?"
I thought that the feet have little to do with it, that it was just the shoulders that were important.
 
E

EdZ

New
Frame 10 - very nice indeed Mathew.... seems to me that a simple change in ball position will result in correcting the few issues mentioned.

Peter Thompson... one of my favorite swings of all time... does anyone know of a good video clip on the web? A very simple, solid motion that folks would do well to study IMO.
 
D

David Alford

New
With all due respect master gurus, may I most courteously offer, "Homer Kelly is just plain wrong!"

Some of the best ball strikers have a staight left leg beyond impact into the finish, incl. Ben Hogan, Mac O'grady, Tiger Woods. Their action is wrong? I think not. A strong left hip rotation cannot avoid straightening the left leg without other, undesirable compensatory moves.

I'll agree hitters tend to retain a flexed left leg, which is correct.
 
H

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

With all due respect master gurus, may I most courteously offer, "Homer Kelly is just plain wrong!"

Some of the best ball strikers have a staight left leg beyond impact into the finish, incl. Ben Hogan, Mac O'grady, Tiger Woods.
Click to expand...

Straight as in 'locked beyond center,' SuperDave? Or straight as simply 'in line?' My post -- and Homer Kelley's reference in 7-16 -- related to the former (as explicitly stated) and not to the latter. :(
 
rwh

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

With all due respect master gurus, may I most courteously offer, "Homer Kelly is just plain wrong!"

Some of the best ball strikers have a staight left leg beyond impact into the finish, incl. Ben Hogan, Mac O'grady, Tiger Woods. Their action is wrong? I think not. A strong left hip rotation cannot avoid straightening the left leg without other, undesirable compensatory moves.

I'll agree hitters tend to retain a flexed left leg, which is correct.
Click to expand...

David,

Mr. Kelley doesn't say a straight left knee is wrong; in fact, a straight left knee at the Finish is the "Standard" knee action (page 183; 6th Edition). He just doesn't recommend that the knee be hyperextended ("locked beyond center"). I know that you aren't advocating a hyperextended knee, either. Interstingly, both you and holenone/Yoda cite Hogan as a good model for the Finish.
 
D

David Alford

New
OK, I was worried HK didn't believe in a straight left, which I would find shocking.
I assume he defines "locked beyond center". I would just say hyperflexed or hyperextended with a pic to illustrate. Perhaps he had a picture in one of his editions?
 
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