My feelings on Pivot Deceleration.

[Brian Manzella]

I gave Fred Shulman many lessons. Fred went to see Ben Doyle about 2 months before I did in June of '87.

The first lesson after he came back from Ben I was trying to get him to slow his pelvis and torso to assist in his "release."

He said Ben told him to "pivot through the ball."

Although not all the time, I taught Ben's theory about the pivot into the late 90's.

By the early '00's, I taught golfers to get the deceleration of the pelvis and torso through getting their bodies into positions that created that decel through limiting the range of motion by this positioning.

I still felt doing it (not decelerating) on short shots was the best way, that is what is in "Flipper." (2005)

I completely changed any feeling that there is any active, actual acceleration or no deceleration up to when we started Project 1.68.

The premise of 1.68 was that we were starting from scratch. We did.

Finney, Como, and Hardesty did some study and reported back to me that the PLANE OF MOTION of the 3D measurement of the segments make the actual GRAPH look, perhaps, not accurate.

We asked the question at AS2 about these concerns, and as we sit, are 80% happy with the concept of deceleration as presented by the experts in the field (not just the AS2 panelists).

We are doing a lot of 3D study this year, and will POST UP some actual footage of some of it for folks to learn. We will use multiple different measurement devices, and consult many experts including our friend Art Maffei.

We will then talks about these findings in detail, just like we did with the release.

As far as teaching goes, me and Mike Jacobs at least (Kevin as well) do not teach and active turning through the ball, only unitizing the "pivot" for going normal.

I am pretty darn sure there is some rotation in "going normal."

But, remember, like Rob Neal said at AS2....how far can you throw a javelin if your plant foot steps on a banana peel?

 

[Michael Finney]

i will probably be proven correct on this one - neal, cheetham, welch, tapio, ian wright are all producing graphs that look slightly different because:

the X and Y axes are measuring something different
some measurements are factoring in linear speed only, angular speed only, a combo of these two.......or they are measuring accelerations versus velocity.....or they are measuring torques versus speed

no apples - no oranges - tens and tens of people in a tizzy from hawaii to long island

 

[wulsy]

If anyone was ever to be in a position to ask a cheetah how it can run so fast how long do you think it would be before someone tried to tell it to run differently?

Anyone who has ever hit decent golf shots consistently knows how to decelerate. Anyone who claims different has never been there.

 

[Dariusz J.]

In 3D decceleration per se is not necessary. Change of orientation of a movement plays a role of decceleration.

Cheers

 

[TeeAce]

But, remember, like Rob Neal said at AS2....how far can you throw a javelin if your plant foot steps on a banana peel?

I was using that many years and still sometimes to give people the image of left side resistance. But I also know one javelin thrower with some medals at highest level and we have been talking about that many times. What seems obvious first can turn upside down when we go deeper. Can You ask Neal what really happens in javelin throwers hips at release and how the left foot action affects to that? What is that action indeed?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sounds like an Art Maffei question as well.

 

[TeeAce]

Sounds like an Art Maffei question as well.

I think you don't even have to ask that. Just watch them and think what happens at hips. At the left hip specially relative to what direction it was moving.

 

[pokerlife]

Brian here is a thread i posted last year about a feeling i had.. Would you say this is going normal?
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/14766-good-day.html <----- there is the link

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian here is a thread i posted last year about a feeling i had.. Would you say this is going normal?
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/14766-good-day.html <----- there is the link

Pretty good job!

 

[Brian Manzella]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ggqa3RbTPCQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[hp12c]

I gave Fred Shulman many lessons. Fred went to see Ben Doyle about 2 months before I did in June of '87.

The first lesson after he came back from Ben I was trying to get him to slow his pelvis and torso to assist in his "release."

He said Ben told him to "pivot through the ball."

Although not all the time, I taught Ben's theory about the pivot into the late 90's.

By the early '00's, I taught golfers to get the deceleration of the pelvis and torso through getting their bodies into positions that created that decel through limiting the range of motion by this positioning.

I still felt doing it (not decelerating) on short shots was the best way, that is what is in "Flipper." (2005)

I completely changed any feeling that there is any active, actual acceleration or no deceleration up to when we started Project 1.68.

The premise of 1.68 was that we were starting from scratch. We did.

Finney, Como, and Hardesty did some study and reported back to me that the PLANE OF MOTION of the 3D measurement of the segments make the actual GRAPH look, perhaps, not accurate.

We asked the question at AS2 about these concerns, and as we sit, are 80% happy with the concept of deceleration as presented by the experts in the field (not just the AS2 panelists).

We are doing a lot of 3D study this year, and will POST UP some actual footage of some of it for folks to learn. We will use multiple different measurement devices, and consult many experts including our friend Art Maffei.

We will then talks about these findings in detail, just like we did with the release.

As far as teaching goes, me and Mike Jacobs at least (Kevin as well) do not teach and active turning through the ball, only unitizing the "pivot" for going normal.

I am pretty darn sure there is some rotation in "going normal."

But, remember, like Rob Neal said at AS2....how far can you throw a javelin if your plant foot steps on a banana peel?

Dude I swear I think Ive heard all of the good funny stuff from you and the rest of this crew and then u pull this plant foot step on a banana stuff, that is dam good!

 

[TeeAce]

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ggqa3RbTPCQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There it is, loud and clear. When left foot comes to the ground, the left leg works so that it pushes the left hip away from target.

Those guys talk lot about the drag, not about the throw. Drag that starts from hips and legs and continues to shoulders and right arm.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I think we are debating semantics....


You OBVIOUSLY have never seen me teach.


Let's get the facts out right here, right now between actual pros in the golf biz.

1. I don't have a 3D machine. One day, when I my studio gets built at home, or we build one at ET, I will get one that day.

2. I have spent a few full days on the AMM machine, and a couple of full days on the MAT-T system. In my opinion, the "kinematic sequence" bored me to death, and I spent the majority of time looking at measured POSITIONS and locations.

3. All of my study in this area—away from the machines—has been POSITIONAL. Where does this bend, arch, side and forward bends, etc. All of the guys working on the Biomechanics part of the Project have not spent much time with the kinematic sequence as well. They have studied much more globally the field of biomechanics.

4. There is OBVIOUSLY a decel of segments in every great swing, it even shows up in your machine.

5. The golfer MUST produce a force that resists the outward pull of the clubhead down by the ball—PLUS—they can go "even more normal" by applying an inward EXTRA FORCE in the release phase. We have said this 1000 times already.

6. When I teach, and the golfer need a boost—so to speak—I put my right hand slightly to the right and slightly under the golfer's right butt cheek and my left hand on the left rib cage. Then DURING THE SWING AT FULL SPEED—while the golfer is hitting the ball NOT BEFORE!!!!—I move them in the correct biomechancical manner——slightly left, slight open, reducing forward bend of the torso.


Sounds like we are just getting our signals crossed on the how to explain it.


That's what happens when you get rank amateurs involved.

 

[TeeAce]

Brian I haven't said anything about your teaching and actually nothing against you. If you feel there is some offense, it might be because english is not my nature language and I can sometimes be more direct I mean to.

I was just commenting the javelin throw idea, and saying that this stoping is actually made to add rotation to the hips by pushing the left away from the target. And that's exactly what my buddy told me about that. Take the support to the left and then drag it through

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ace,

You rip me elsewhere, and I put up a detailed post to clarify my position—on my birthday/holiday no less—and you have that for a reply?

COMMENT ON THE POST OF MINE WHICH SEEMS TO EXPLAIN THE "CONFLICT" of the body THAT YOU AHVE WITH ME quite well.

Please.

 

[TeeAce]

Ace,

You rip me elsewhere, and I put up a detailed post to clarify my position—on my birthday/holiday no less—and you have that for a reply?

COMMENT ON THE POST OF MINE WHICH SEEMS TO EXPLAIN THE "CONFLICT" of the body THAT YOU AHVE WITH ME quite well.

Please.

Not you, but I see some of your strong statements are not really science based or at least not put out like that. There I think I got my right to disagree, as well I also say (also in elsewhere) if I agree with you. In science, the debate is best way to progress.

1. I don't have a 3D machine. One day, when I my studio gets built at home, or we build one at ET, I will get one that day.

Thats great, because that's the only way to get real information. But we need to also study how it's made and how it measures things.

2. I have spent a few full days on the AMM machine, and a couple of full days on the MAT-T system. In my opinion, the "kinematic sequence" bored me to death, and I spent the majority of time looking at measured POSITIONS and locations.

I have spend few hours also to research positions and moves. I have found that dec and acc has big affect to the positions as golf swing is full of joints and forces around. I mean by decelerating the inner circle, parts outside will have different positions

4. There is OBVIOUSLY a decel of segments in every great swing, it even shows up in your machine.

Absolutely there is, but why it shows that and why it happens. Is the deceleration of the hands something mary by muscular work, or is it reaction for the laws of physics? Are they still decelerate if the player is doing opposite? How much of shoulders dec is because they change their direction? Is the dec of the hips even on good players swings because most of them hasn't learn the right way to use their legs? Even they play great, could it be better with some other movements? What we teach to juniors to get them do that well?

Lot of questions there

5. The golfer MUST produce a force that resists the outward pull of the clubhead down by the ball—PLUS—they can go "even more normal" by applying an inward EXTRA FORCE in the release phase. We have said this 1000 times already.

100% agree. It can't be else. But there is still forces moving the whole club toward the target. Some forces which are pushing the grip can help to avoid club head closure ratio to be too much.

6. When I teach, and the golfer need a boost—so to speak—I put my right hand slightly to the right and slightly under the golfer's right butt cheek and my left hand on the left rib cage. Then DURING THE SWING AT FULL SPEED—while the golfer is hitting the ball NOT BEFORE!!!!—I move them in the correct biomechancical manner——slightly left, slight open, reducing forward bend of the torso.

Thats great thought IMO.

 

[Jon Hardesty]

Lets use a linear example to become a little more clear on how all this proximal to distal speed is generated in the golf swing...

Imagine a person standing on the shoulders of a very strong and powerful human being. The object of the game is to get the top person as high into the air as possible. Here are a few scenarios to ponder:

1. The bottom person can jump as hard as he can and this would allow the top person to get a given height into the air.

2. The top person could jump as high as he could without the bottom person jumping at all and he would also get into the air a given amount.

3. Now here is where things can get quite complicated: What if the bottom person bent his knees, squated down and jumped into the air as hard as he could? As he accelerates upward the person on top of his shoulders jumps as hard into the air as he can as well. This would mean that the bottom person would slow down (decelerate) due to the top person accelerating. In using this example, the bottom person does not try to decelerate. He is simply unable to accelerate due to the top persons acceleration. Without the bottom person trying to continuely accelerate into the air, the top person would not have a stable platform from which to jump. As he tried to accelerate the bottom person would be "squishy" and some of the energy would be disipated. What this means is that segments switch from accelerators to stabilizers. The muscles don't turn off, each segment is simply only allowed to accelerate for a short period of time before the next segment accelerates from the previous segment, thus the graphs peak turns into a valley and the next peak goes a little bit higher.

In using this two segment, linear example things can become quite complicated. For example, how high the top person goes would be dependant upon when he chooses to jump into the air. What if they both jumped at the exact same time? The top person wouldn't be able to use the "head start" as a contributor for his acceleration.

What about this example: What if the top person didn't have his knees bent as the bottom person jumped into the air? That would mean that the bottom person would have to move all of the weight of the top person. What does that mean? That means that as the bottom person squats down to jump into the air, the top person should be bending his knees fairly vigorously so that he weighs less for a short period of time. Thus, allowing the bottom person to accelerate at a faster rate before the top person jumps.

The above example is a prime reason why good mobility between segments as well as a little slack allows the previous segment to accelerate a little faster because they are acting a little more independant of the other segments. Without good mobility and slack between segments, the previous segment is forced to accelerate the next segments up the chain due to lack of seperation. Think of the bottom person jumping into the air while the top person acts like dead weight.

In my opinion, people get caught up in these graphs and seem to have tunnel vision about efficiency and optimization. What if it just so happens that the top person in our example had an unbelievable vertical leap? He would be making up for the bottom persons inability to contribute wouldn't he?

There has been an enormous amount of research done on proximal to distal speed generation that dates back well into the 1930's (don't quote me on the date). It is not opinion, only science or at the very least a hypothesis that was generated around scientific principles.

Lets add some more complication to the equation: We haven't talked about the stretch-shorten cycle of muscles, the timing of all the muscles firing which gets us into neuromechanics, or how much each segment contributes to the system. Oh, I almost forgot to include the arm segments and golf club which gets us into MOI discussions...

As you can see, things can get quite complicated when talking about pivot acceleration and deceleration. However, I am probably not 100% correct about every detail in my examples. This is merely information as I understand what I have learned about this subject over the years.

There are probably some misspelled words and gramatical errors in this post because I was pressed for time.

Thanks for reading...

 

[Joe Duffer]

Now that was well said... but, I'd love to see what you could come up with given a little more time...

 

[pokerlife]

Ace,

You rip me elsewhere, and I put up a detailed post to clarify my position—on my birthday/holiday no less—and you have that for a reply?

COMMENT ON THE POST OF MINE WHICH SEEMS TO EXPLAIN THE "CONFLICT" of the body THAT YOU AHVE WITH ME quite well.

Please.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I don't have a 3D machine. One day, when I my studio gets built at home, or we build one at English Turn, I will get one that day.

Thats great, because that's the only way to get real information. But we need to also study how it's made and how it measures things.

Great!!!

Does your machine measure torques and forces????