Brian Manzella
Administrator
....crickets......
My feelings on Pivot Deceleration.
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SteveT
Guest
Excellent analogies, Jon, and it clearly illustrates in understandable terms how the segmental velocity curves work. I must admit I'm guilty of assuming everybody appreciates the series of velocity "bell" curves from hips to shoulders to arms to club because they are so revealing to me. You represent an intermediary between the pure science and the practical application of that science in 1.68.
I can't teach, but I understand the sciences and you are on the path to applying both successfully.
Dariusz J.
New member
As I said many times, the trick is to stall the pivot and continue the motion in the same time. Impossible ? Not at all. Change of orientation of the motion makes it possible. It is a very simple physical phenomenon not requiring a PhD in physics.
Cheers
Brian what your describing sounds a lot like what Chris Welch calls "core bracing"
See link for the short video on the topic
Core Brace Club Release: Part 1 - YouTube
Any thoughts??
See link for the short video on the topic
Core Brace Club Release: Part 1 - YouTube
Any thoughts??
Tony D'Antonio
New
Twitch, I love your Ben Doyle quote. Brings back a lot of memories of my lessons with him. He'd say something like this in a soft voice, I'd say, "What?", he'd say, "You heard me.", and then 10 years later, on the range, his saying would hit me like a ton of bricks. And I'd smile and mumble to myself, "That's what he was talking about.".
So I post a video from a leading and well respected authority of golf bio-mechanics relating to the EXACT so called "phenomina" that Brian has talked about many times in his videos and you get ZERO response.
WHY????????
Do people not want to learn and understand how kinematics and bio-mechanics operate in a real world environment relating to movement patterns required for optimal golf swings? These are practical principles that are used in the field every day by the world's best players. I would like to know how a top 100 coach could apply this info further to help his students? How does this info fit into the ideas of the new release?
What I take from this video is the TGM idea of a pivot driven release with the shaft up the left arm is just plain wrong. Old Ben Doyle's concept of sticking the shaft on the tire at impact is not quite right, the shaft should bounce and recoil Ben! - Pivot Deceleration at work. His shoot the marble down the pipe drill and shake the sugar drills seem to be more valid.
Lynn Blake's drag the wet mop is probably the worst drill you could give a golfer, just plain wrong... getting a student to drag a 7 iron behind while they walk to feel drag/lag is Dark Ages stuff at best!
WHY????????
Do people not want to learn and understand how kinematics and bio-mechanics operate in a real world environment relating to movement patterns required for optimal golf swings? These are practical principles that are used in the field every day by the world's best players. I would like to know how a top 100 coach could apply this info further to help his students? How does this info fit into the ideas of the new release?
What I take from this video is the TGM idea of a pivot driven release with the shaft up the left arm is just plain wrong. Old Ben Doyle's concept of sticking the shaft on the tire at impact is not quite right, the shaft should bounce and recoil Ben! - Pivot Deceleration at work. His shoot the marble down the pipe drill and shake the sugar drills seem to be more valid.
Lynn Blake's drag the wet mop is probably the worst drill you could give a golfer, just plain wrong... getting a student to drag a 7 iron behind while they walk to feel drag/lag is Dark Ages stuff at best!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Twitch, the first time I saw the tire drill from him Ten years ago i knew it was wrong. I've always told the students that the club should bounce off the tire and recoil. Thanks for posting.
natep
New
Whats the "Doyle Tire Drill"? Do you try to push the tire instead?
Tony D'Antonio
New
Ben Doyle used the tire, flat on the ground, as an impact bag (before there were impact bags). You were suppose to hit it, in sort of slow motion, and keep the club on the tire to show you weren't being delicate at impact and to ingrain a proper impact position (I guess). Apparantly, this was/is wrong. I'm guessing the impact bag has little to no use if we are now saying the club should bounce back off a tire? Because there will be no bounce back from an impact bag even if you are doing it 'right'.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I've only seen it, never heard it in person although I've watched him teach. Seemed to me it fostered a "sustained impact" feel.
Tony I'm saying that the use of an impact bag is still a great tool for feeling the bodies positioning at impact and it really helps to feel the "core bracing" and help with the correct downswing sequencing and kinematics. You can train your body to fire in the right sequence using a bag as a form of 'functional' training. Once you get the feel you can then hit shots firing the body the same way. This is the whole idea of PST (progressive skills training). As golf instructors we often omitt this stage and go straight to getting students to do it with a club in full speed - then wonder why students can't GET IT. Movement patterns are not taught this way effectively.
Ben wanted you to press the club into the club/tyre and hold it on there with your buns. It was an integral part of his maximum participation pattern. He got a lot right but this needed an upgrade. I saw a vid of him teaching this to Grant Waite for half and hour. I would hate to have seen Grant's Trackman numbers after that session.
How do you know these pro's were optimised? Maybe their kinetic links were not great? I think you would struggle to find a well respected bio-mech guy who doesn't agree with pivot deceleration.
Here's another question. Using your body as a platform with no active rotation, torqing or loading how and just flat out swinging with your arms and hard as you can. How far can you hit the ball? What overall % of full power would this equate to? If you were on a force plate and did this, the ground force readings, both linaer and shear would blow you away.
Fair enough, but just to be clear your position is that you don't recommend a slowing of the pivot to create maximum distal speed. So the massive amounts of evidence and data on kinematics are wrong? Of course you can get guys who don't slow down, does this mean it's right? What would Tapio make of Rory McIlroy reversing hips through impact then? Would you say that's not optimal?
That's not even relevant, every golfer that plays standing on the ground would produce these reactive ground forces. You're not going to just swing your arms and move your hands without creating rotation and torques, the handpath also has to be correct, it's not just swing away throw the club and it's all good, you got shoulders and a core and your lower body to deal with, and that's not even considering your mind, it ain't that simple if it was everyone would be doing it and doing it well.
Also if it was that easy why the need for a bunch of world class scientists to figure it out?
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That move in Rorys swing happens much after impact, but would venice to see how it shows on graphs.
I tried to find the text again from TPI web page, but couldn't for the moment, where they wrote kind of correction, that deceleration happens anyway without players active actions.
Of course I'm only a kid who is guessing without measuring tongues and forces
, but I think I know something about science and research. I have red at least 1000 scientific articles about golf swing, and in every one of them, the abstract and method are written out really clear. People who make real science can after that evaluate how well the research is made. Here is part of one from TPI:"The twelve sensors were attached strategically to create an accurate full-body model of the golfer. The main sensors of interest in this study were the pelvis sensor, which was attached to the sacrum by a stretch Velcro strap; the thorax sensor, which was attached at T3 using a chest harness; the lead upper arm sensor, which was attached on the posterior, distal aspect of the humerus using a stretch Velcro strap; and the club sensor which was attached securely just below the grip"
If we take two different research and start to compare those, we need to know method of both of them. If I see K-Vest and TPI are showing the shoulders of one player 30deg open at impact and we see it only 5, the first question should be why. Then go to method and understand it. Thats exactly same what I asked about AoA. How is it measured exactly. How are the measuring points situated and relative to what they are measuring? 3D measuring is at least challenging, and I couldn't understand before we started how challenging it is to make those measurements to results as graphs and numbers.
The problem starts when people start to believe one is right and there in no other options. In real science the debate is about methods and their validity. Or when comparing results to each others, understand what you can compare and what you can't.
If I put these kind of graphs here
BTW Brian: is going to normal increasing absolute vector speed of the club head, angular speed, and if it's that, relative to what hub and is that hub fixed or if it's moving, how that moving is counted, or linear speed and if that, what is the line of that direction?
Yes every golfer standing on the ground COULD produce the desired ground forces BUT THET DON'T because they don't know how and have NEVER been shown. This is my point. They are normally shown some form of pivot motion but this far from guarantees effective use of the ground, especially in the transition and downswing. You are right that when you swing your arms you create some torques and roatation and start gripping the ground, this would have to happen as the centre of mass gets displaced by the distal mass of arms and club.
Teeace I have seen Rory's graphs from a session on the AMM 6 DOF machine and his pivot decel is as clear as day. I have also seen significant improvemens with lots of golfers by using the AMM effectively. Anyone can get graphs and data to show what they want them to show to satisfy their beliefs. But I would say this, how many world class golfer's has your machine helped. AMM and Trackman has helped too many to mention. THAT is the real proof and validity
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What you are saying may not be totally measuring METHOD issue, it can be a question of how those results are reported. Sensor positioning is one thing but I'm thinking that Deg/s can possibly miss something depending on how the center of rotation has been defined and is it moving or not (and is one or multiple centers). Those issues would come from how 3d data has been transfomed into numbers for analysis, not a problem with measuring per se.If I put these kind of graphs here
is someone ready to really explain what is the difference? How is it possible that chs at the amateur 1 graph is decelerating before impact? Can it be true? Yes it can and can't, depending of measuring method.
Also. if I remember correctly, this is from a relatively old article so it's propably not a good representation of where the leading enge of science is now.
And - I would be surprised if you could actually get detailed answers on how exactly different technologies define and do their measurements. I agree that it would be nice to know, but I'm sure they regard many of these things as their trade secrects and why would they tell the world those. TM is the leader in their field and why would they help their current and potential future competition to produce same numbers by telling exactly how they measure things.
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I hope I can make this clear now, because many seems to read something else that i write.
1. Hips:
95% or more players I've measured have hip speed deceleration before impact. There is still some who got the peak speed just at impact, and I have seen some measurement from Tiger, where it was just like that. When there is tour players like that, it means that there is no rule how one should make it.
There is also different reasons for dec. Some players has rotated them so much open so early, that it can't acc any more. Some others are actively (or being too passive with legs) slowing that speed down. That has to be checked from orientation graphs, but when I see someone with big dec on hips and not them open, I also see 99% of them flipping or crossing. I haven't found any advance of that move, and even TPI somewhere said that don't try to slow anything down, it will happen by MOI.
2. Shoulders:
I've seen more than 90% of players who dec their shoulder speed before impact, but that can still be divined to three groups; those who's shoulders continue dec, those who got quite level speed after that and those who's shoulder speed is increasing a lot again before impact and continue to grow after it. Then there is some players that got the speed really low and accelerate all the way through. All the best players are at group 2, so acc - dec - acc and got the highest speed after impact.
I ad this conversation few times in Orlando last year, when there was people saying that doesn't happen. I opened the video from top view and put the shoulders to impact and draw the line there. Then 17 x click (170fps it means 0,1s) and draw the other line. Then asked how much they were rotated and asked to compare that to the speed we had. No debate after that.
3. Different definitions and measurement points:
It's obvious that measuring spine rotation or outer edge of shoulder joint you will see different results. IT DOESN'T MATTER AS FAR YOU DONT COMPARE RESULTS OF TWO DIFFERENT DEVICES RESULTS!! That's what I've been saying 100 times, none of them are wrong, they are different.
In both, hips and shoulders there can be difference for that same reason. You can rotate your lower back (where many device got their measurement point) without moving your hip joints. Also upper back sensor can rotate even by scapulas moves. Thats one of the reasons we decided to measure just shoulders, and get much different results in many cases. The good thing is that we can check our results with top down video and see if it's correct.
Also the rotation is always relative to something. Is it to the spine angle of to the vertical axis makes difference. We got both in the future, but for the moment we use that vertical axis method, because I think it tells more and anyway the difference is not very big. Anyway we can look at the right shoulder lateral speed (toward the target) to see if it acc or dec. at impact
There is also other things like filtering and calculation + drawing the lines, but no meaning to talk about those.
My message is that all 3D machines are great help for players, if the user knows their functions and can teach those things. No difference between us and the others, wrong conclusions and wrong advices will destroy the players swing. The worst thing is still to compare numbers of two different devices and make conclusions that one of them is better or one of them is wrong. For the player still, more is more, less is less, whatever device you use.
Which way you mean that orientation? Like this?
So the red is lateral speed and blue is lateral orientation. The hor. black line is ball position and hit point is that red vert.
One funny thing is that we need to make 3D measurement to produce good 2D graphs
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