My Manzella Trip Report....I'm back

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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
and tired.....LOL

I'll post something better tomorrow but i must've hit over 1000 balls this weekend and tried 10 different patterns and pretty much ended up with what i showed up with with a different takeaway and more clubface control. Curious what it looks like?

check out David Toms swing or the "Never Hook Again" video. Thats pretty much what i do. I think it is a great pattern because its literally either straight or a small fade. Its impossible to hook and you can hit it as hard as you want with no fear of going left. Only downside to that swing is your bad shot is either a really big fade (bad clubface control) or a big pull (off plane).

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More on this tomorrow
 
Sounds like video posting time to me Jim.

It's beginning to look like there are two big things coming out of TGM in this latest era of internet & DVD communication. Namely, hitting and Never Hook Again / turning shoulder plane - both being disdained to some degree by traditional swing education.

And yes, I have a question too. :)

Do you feel like you are throwing the clubhead out - and sorta dropping it down on the ball - with left forearm roll (accumulator 3 release) when you come to impact?


Vaako
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Well i'm not quite sure how to answer you...it's almost like you're asking me if i'm swinging because of the throwing the clubhead comment but then it sounds like you're asking me if i'm hitting by uncocking and rolling.

Basically with the never hook again swing, you go up the turned shoulder plane and then allow gravity to drop your arms BEFORE you start your shoulder downplane. If you don't, you'll throw your shoulder off plane and go out-in.

With me, i have a tendenacy to reverse roll on the downswing so i have to make sure that i roll the arm back to the plane when i start down otherwise i'll tend to come down with vertical hinging which is no good with that swing.

Does that help?
 
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

Well i'm not quite sure how to answer you...it's almost like you're asking me if i'm swinging because of the throwing the clubhead comment but then it sounds like you're asking me if i'm hitting by uncocking and rolling.

Basically with the never hook again swing, you go up the turned shoulder plane and then allow gravity to drop your arms BEFORE you start your shoulder downplane. If you don't, you'll throw your shoulder off plane and go out-in.

With me, i have a tendenacy to reverse roll on the downswing so i have to make sure that i roll the arm back to the plane when i start down otherwise i'll tend to come down with vertical hinging which is no good with that swing.

Does that help?
- Bold by Vaako -


Yep, it helps a lot.

Made - the bolded passage - me realize I had no clue whether I was hitting or swinging myself. The feeling I was asking about would probably come from me hitting with associated simultaneous accumulator 2 & 3 release. Felt like combined outwards flip and downwards drop of clubhead.

Didn't even realize it was foggy. So, the guestion should have been: Are you swinging or hitting with Never Hook Again?

And you are writing a detailed report of your visit w/ Brian as we speak, right?


Vaako
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Im really busy at work today...only have a few minutes right now. I'll get one up later tonight.

I'm pretty sure i'm using a 3 barrel hitting procedure WITHOUT active right arm thrust, or i could be switting a little. I planned on asking brian so i could make a better post.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
.........Both "Vaako" and "Jim_0068" took road trips to the LAUNCHING PAD (Yoda calls his place the swamp, I call my place[in Louisville] the "Lanching Pad").....

I feel like we did good for both.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Alright....so i'll give a good report:

I went down to the Louisville Launching Pad with trying to find out what stroke i stumbled upon in the fall before winter came. Whatever i was doing i 1) couldn't hit it left 2) hit it relatively straight or small fade and 3) my misses were very managable. Also my distance was well up...200 yard 5 irons from a 108mph driver swing is pretty good if you ask me.

Anyway, winter happened and everything was a big pull, pull cut, slice, push, short.......basically all kinds of CRAP.

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First thing we worked on was really figuring out if i was a hitter or swinger. We tried swinging 5-6 different ways for almost an hour and i just didn't like it, at all. However short strokes i don't mind swinging but no full roll horizontal hinge, i'll still employ angled hinging. Interesting huh? More on that later.

So we decided on hitting and really started learing the hitting stroke and getting the feeling of the right shoulder launching pad. Let me tell you, when you "do it right" you feel like someone just punched you in the chest and you're going to fall back. Its really neat. I was having a hard time though with the crossline action and out to right field concept as i like to swing LEFT and not out to the right.

So we worked on a much more on-plane takeaway and a lot of drills to get me to swing more to the right, not necessarily to get me into a drawer of the ball but if i plan to hit the ball i can't be going so far left after impact. Or could i? ;)

You see what happened before my first visit with brian was i swung it waaaay flat and dropped the club to the inside and tried to swing left hoping my WIDE OPEN clubface could somehow start left. Problem was i'd either 1) get literally stuck 2) i left it open and got a big pull-slice (that was short too) or i'd flip it and hit a big hook. So i basically got a "never slice again" lesson and really learned a flat left wrist and more clubface control. During the summer it morphed into my current pattern which we eventually found.

Basically my swing is:

-up the wall
-down the wall
-left of the wall with some kind of angled hinge

OR: Basically the premise of Brian's Video "Never Hook Again" and very similar to David Tom's swing.

Now, why did i end up this way? Who knows, brian sure didn't teach it to me so i don't want to hear any crap that he's trying to mold me into DT cuz that isn't the case.

Am i hitting? Am i swinging? Am i actively or consciously using my right arm? The answer to all of the above is NO.

What i've learned is i really don't care if i hit, swing, or swit. If the ball does what i want i can score low and compete which is the goal. The only time i really employ hitting/swinging and different specific hinges is in my short game. You really have to be able to control your clubface to get up/down and score.

Am i using a pivot controlled hands or a hands controlled pivot? Again i really don't know and i really don't care. I think if more people would worry more about what they could do to make their game as natural and consistent as can be most would be better off.

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So there ya have it, i'll let brian respond to the specifics of what i use as i don't really have a clue. I'll put below what I FEEL DURING MY PATTERN:

Grip: slightly stronger than the manzella grip article, more of a behind the shaft hitter's grip. Went from 1-1.5 knuckles to more 2-2.5 knuckles.
Stance: square stance, in regards to plane line and target line. Also more of an open shoulder versus tilted shoulder setup. Setup tilt is bad with this swing because you swing inside too fast which is no good. Start with an impact fix and settle into an adjusted address position with mid-body hands and a slightly bent/lower right elbow. Due to the adjusted address and mid-body hands my clubface is closed at address.
Takeaway: i basically go up a vertical wall in front of me with the face looking at the ball. As my shoulders turn the club will come inside and if i do it right i end up on the turned shoulder plane. I also let my left arm roll naturally and achieve a FLAT left wrist and BENT right wrist at the end of my swing. Only thing that gets to parallel are the longer clubs.
Transition: i literally feel like i have to wait for the club to catch up and drop. I just wait for gravity to drop the club from near my head more down to my shoulder. This puts the club back on plane. I just have to make sure i roll the face back to the plane as i have a tendancy to reverse roll on the downswing as the club "drops."
Downswing and Pivot: Once the club "drops" all i do is pivot as hard through the ball as i want, the "swing left" happens naturally for me so i don't have to worry about trying to swing left.

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Thats about it, as long as i keep clubface control and let the arms drop i swing as hard as i want and it 1) doesn't go left 2) goes relatively straight or 3) small fade.

Pros to this swing are:

-anti left
-swing as hard as you want
-very accurate
-shaping the ball is as simple as either opening/closing your stance line instead of swinging "more left" or "more right." This is accomplished by the stance.

Cons to this swing are:

-lol...anti-left. Hard for me to hit a big draw. I really have to close my stance which makes it rough for me to finish as i go so left after impact.
-if you lose clubface control you'll hit shots too high, too short, and off to the right
-the banana slice can happen if you get lazy
-if you don't let the club drop, you get a BIG PULL.

------------------

So there ya have it....i'll let brian comment on anything else he wants too. Anyone can ask any questions you want and i'll do my best to answer.
 
Brian:

Brian you are right, I was at the launching pad this weekend and had a good time meeting Jim and working on my game with you. I would recommend a trip if anyone has the time.

Brian and I also tried to work on swinging and quickly discovered that I should concentrate on learning how to hit properly. I tend to hit, but don't keep my right wrist angle and cut across ball. I need to get my left wrist flatter in the backswing and maintain this into the ball. I'll review "The never Slice again" video and maintain my angles into the follow-through.

One of the images I'll keep from the weekend, is Brian demonstrating lag pressure by punching a few 8 irons past Jim while he was working on his chipping. Excellent clubface control by Brian.

Again, great meeting you Jim and thanks Brian for you insights on the golf swing.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Real world teaching with ole Jimbo.

What will work....not on paper....but in Competition....even if that Competition is with yourself!
 
Wow great post Jim...this topic is really helping me...

I'm just now realizing how great the "up-the-wall down-the-wall" image is...It really is feeling good going up the turned shoulder plane then swinging with angled hinge. Feels simple and powerful and direct because it's not going around my body much (none of that "deep hands," Snead move) what a golf swing should feel like. Up and then straight down on the ball.

That's the key for me with this swing...to hold the roll to an angled hinge...huge hooks if I h-hinge. And you're right- no hook shape at all...misses are pushed right.

Feels like Watson.
 

DDL

New
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

Stance: square stance, in regards to plane line and target line. Also more of an open shoulder versus tilted shoulder setup. Setup tilt is bad with this swing because you swing inside too fast which is no good.

This is very interesting. Square shoulders also put me in an awkward extreme right tilt , which Brian explains in his video, causes hooks. I wondered how he setup so centered without the tilt. Now I know. It's a slightly open shoulder line. Thanks for this info.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by DDL

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

Stance: square stance, in regards to plane line and target line. Also more of an open shoulder versus tilted shoulder setup. Setup tilt is bad with this swing because you swing inside too fast which is no good.

This is very interesting. Square shoulders also put me in an awkward extreme right tilt , which Brian explains in his video, causes hooks. I wondered how he setup so centered without the tilt. Now I know. It's a slightly open shoulder line. Thanks for this info.

Tilt at setup is natural. Why? Because your right hand is LOWER than your left hand when you put it on the club. So when you put that right hand on the club you have to tilt (lower your right shoulder) to get there.

To setup without the tilt, instead of moving your right hand DOWN to take the right hand grip, just grab it naturally and your shoulders should open.
 
I've used the "Up the wall, down the wall, left of the wall" technique for close to 2 months anytime my swing isn't quite right and it works like magic. Part of my preshot routine is picturing a huge wall leading from just outside the ball to the target. The more and more I use it, the more I realize that it's an extremely effective way to play golf. The technique was discussed in a thread here a while back before the "never hook again" video came out and I had a pretty firm grasp, so I never ordered it. After hearing your glowing review of the concept, I had to plop down the loot for the video. I'm waiting for the email response right now and I'm curious whether I interpreted it correctly from the earlier discussion.

Great post Jim!

Hurry up and send me the link Brian!!!!!!!!
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Glad i could help dorn....to me the "left of the wall" comes naturally so for someone who loves to "bash into the wall" through impact it will be a hard concept. You'll understand what i mean when you see the video.

jim
 
I haven't seen the video yet because Brian STILL HASN'T SENT ME THE LINK:([8D], but I have a good idea of what you're talking about and it comes very naturally for me as well. I perfer to fade the ball and this idea kind of guides me through the motion without being mechanical. By the way, the first week I used this technique, I hit the longest drive of my life with a carry of 350 yards. For me at 118mph SS, it was one of those shots where the sun, moon and all the planets lined up. It was a perfect 5 yard fade. I really feel like I can let go and swing as hard as I want without fear of the consequences.
 
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