Natural Lag

[lagster]

I noticed a guy a few years ago hitting balls on the practice range. He was striking the ball very well, the sound he was producing was good, and he was taking nice, thin divots in the correct place. I had met him before, and knew he was a former pro quarterback.

I asked him if he would mind if I filmed his swing. He said he would like to see it also.

When we viewed the swing we saw a maximum trigger delay, and forward lean at impact. I responded, " Look at that Release!" "How did you learn to do that?" He responded, "I don't know." "Is that good?"

His plane was also pretty good. I told him his swing was very good, and it is easy to see why he struck the ball so well.

He is an example of Natural Lag. I heard that Ballesteros got his from hitting balls at the beach. Many juniors seem to have Natural lag. Do any of you have any ideas about this?

 

[jrb15]

Lagster:

My nine year old lags like Tiger and Sergio. No one taught him to do this. He is very slight, about 4'5" and 60lbs, and hits a driver an honest 160 (occasionally more). He does this because he is a natural swinger with a great turn. It seems to me his relative lack of strength has in effect taught him to whip the clubhead through with the handle. He has also always played junior clubs (US Kids) of appropriate size and weight--cut when necessary precisely to his size, so he doesn't struggle to take the club back. It just looks like a huge turn back, then a deceptively effortless uncoil which you can see on video generate enormous power relative to his size.

My guess is that a free, full, properly turned takeaway often allows someone who has yet to have too much racing through his head to find and feel the lag needed to generate clubhead speed.

 

[lagster]

That's interesting jrb15! I too have seen this in SOME juniors.

I recently attended a seminar given by a US KIDS CLUB rep..
He said one interesting thing about Tiger as a junior, was that his equipment was evaluated every year. They tried to get the proper length, lie angle, flex, weight, etc.., adjusted as Tiger grew.

He said that only about 5% of children survive cut-offs. Because they are too heavy, too stiff, and the lie is too upright, most will get frustrated and quit, or develop poor swing habits. A few will learn to drag the club through there... because the club is HEAVY, and so the ball will not go left with the upright lie... and will develop LAG.

Most, however, will try to lift the ball in the air, and will develop a scooping, throwaway type of action. The heavy club will also ingrain a lack of speed in their swings.

He said Nancy Lopez is an example of someone who learned with clubs that were too heavy. She developed that kind of drag and lift takeaway as a child, but was one of the rare exceptions of one that could make that type of swing work.

They believe that the lighter clubs, that they sell, will help the child develop speed in their swings at an early age, and that it will stick with them as adults.

Do some of you have experience or comments regarding junior equipment, training, lessons, etc., as related to the development of LAG, CLUBHEAD SPEED, etc.?

 

[diggerdog]

What do you expect him to say, "You don't need to buy new clubs from me. Just cut down your used set like Seve's dad did with an old 2 iron>"
A fuller brush man ain't gonna tell you to buy a comb.

 

[lagster]

Digger,

There could be some salemanship there! However, this same guy also only teaches juniors now, and operates a P.G.A. junior golf facility. I think he does have one student that went on to the L.P.G.A Tour, and he still works with her.

But...what about the the things that help people develop good golf skills (like lag)... including their equipment?

 

[Brian Manzella]

I have always found that clubs that are slightly too big/heavy are best for Juniors.

The reason is that they CAN'T control it completely...they have to swing it....

..Jack Nicklaus...John Daly....MikeSTLOC...

 

[MizunoJoe]

Brian,

I agree and am glad you said "slightly", because if TOO heavy, it will encourage #2 lag loss because of the stress of a max lag, snap release. Too heavy would create sweep releasers.

 

[lagster]

MizunoJoe,

So you think... get the juniors clubs that are just a touch too heavy. Some of the junior clubs do seem too light for some stronger children.

What about the shaft flex? It seems that if the shaft is too stiff, (most cut-offs) that the child would not be able to stress the shaft enough to establish clubhead lag.

 

[jrb15]

Brian:

I can't imagine why we think having ill-fitting clubs, even slightly heavier, benefits juniors. I do think clubs too light are problematic--though not nearly as big a problem as clubs too heavy. I've just seen too many kids now, at my club, in USGA junior golf, to believe in any of the old strange notions we have of training and equipping children. Go ahead and give your kids cut-offs. But the kids who are brought up with proper fitting clubs have the best swings--period. They look like Tour pros and have a huge headstart on learning, and carrying into later years, proper technique.

If Goat's around, would he like to chime in?

 

[Redgoat]

jrb15,

I have never seen heavy clubs help.

Brady

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hey Brady...we miss ya buddy...

Anyhoo...I repeat..slightly heavy, slightly long.

 

[MizunoJoe]

lagster,

For a junior, I would want a slightly heavy club with a not-to-stiff shaft. Cut offs are too head-light and stiff.

 

[mgjordan]

This doesn't add much to the heavy/light debate, but I've heard many times that Sam Snead learned golf by hitting rocks with an old mashie head tied to a buggy whip.

 

[sbark]

Any thoughts on what is too heavy--some guidelines for size/wt of kid vrs swingwt/lenght/flex

Realize every kid diff---but some place to start would be helpful----

 

[mb6606]

John Daly claims he played adult clubs and attributes his great power to swinging to long heavy clubs as a kid. In the past every golfer learned to play with adult clubs or cut downs. IMHO I would rather see a kid develop speed/thrust at an early age. It is a lot harder to teach distance.

 

[EdStraker]

sbark,

You can get some guidelines at http://www.uskidsgolf.com/

 

[lagster]

MizunoJoe,

Would you make the clubs yourself(with components), or are there clubs on the market that you like? Maybe some Ladies' sets, for example, would be OK for some stronger, taller children.

I think the US KIDS CO. has done quite a bit of research on weight, flex, etc., in fitting childen. They do, however, seem a little on the LIGHT side for some children.

I remember the US KIDS rep. brought in a 7 iron that was about the length of a driver.
He said that this is what an adult 7 iron feels like to most children. He said a few will survive, or even excell (John Daly), but many will give up, or develop poor swing habits as a result.

 

[MizunoJoe]

lagster,

That's a good question. I wonder if any on the forum started as juniors and they merely "survived" the old cut-off trick. I wonder how many kids have quit because of improper tools?

I see now that most of the "warehouses" stock kid sets, supposedly designed to address the problem. I guess I'm skeptical that it's a marketing angle. Like "game improvement" clubs designed to maximize the performance of lagless, bent-plane-line, bent-left-wrist adult swings.

 

[lagster]

It looks there are two schools on junior equipment...

(1) Juniors using clubs on the HEAVY/LONG side will develop lag, because they are not strong enough to control the club. They will tend to drag the heavy club through the ball.

(2) Juniors using clubs that are FIT to the golfer(lighter weight), will have a better chance of developing speed in their swing, and will not have as much potential of developing poor swing habits due to using heavy-stiff-long clubs.

I once heard that equipment is about 15% of the whole equation in developing and maintaining a good golf technique. That 15%, however, can greatly effect the other 85%!

This topic seems fairly important. The potential of the future adult golfer could be greatly influenced by the decisions made early on.

 

[mb6606]

Here is reality speaking as father of two pretty good golfers aged 11 and 12. Playing a 450 yd par 5 hole they will use a 45" driver and then pull out a fairway wood. These kids want birdies, they want to compete and score. The US Kids clubs be great for teaching a swing but the ball goes no where (70-100 yd 5 irons). BTW my 5', 90 pound 12 yr old has tested his swing speed on a simulator (93-98 mph).