Need some feedback and your opinion...

[Jim Kobylinski]

So i play this course once in a while that will be remain nameless no matter how many times i will be asked and/or how many PM's i may receive on the subject i am not going to name.

ANYWAY

It is my belief that this course has borderline unplayable greens on many holes and some could even be transplanted into a US Open and be just as disruptive and i want to know if I'm being dramatic or being fair. Here is an example:

Par 3

-175-190 yards depending on front/middle/back pin position but generally plays around 180 yards. (championship tees are longer btw)
-Green is more of a rectangle, narrow and long
-Slopes back to front and left to right
-Protected by bunkers on both front left/right
-Has a false front / bail out front area before green
-Open area to the right of the green
-Trees and heavy rough left of the green
-Pin placement tends to be front left to middle left

The last few times i have played this hole i have had the following happen:

-Pulled left (twice). DEATH. Impossible to make par, just is. I landed a perfect pitch/flop shot that landed in the mini rough/fringe that gently popped out and it rolled past the hole and all the way down the slope to the fringe on other edge of green leaving about a 25-30 uphill/side hill putt.

-Went slightly long. Either sink the putt down the hill or you are left with at least a 5-7 foot uphill putt coming back at best. Generally with the speed of these greens it is closer to 10 foot or worse.

-Bailed out right. Had to pitch over the bunker and just not enough spin to get it to stay close, slope catches it and it rolls back towards the front of the green.

-------------------------------

Based on my experience above you really only have 1 play here and that is hit it short on purpose to the bail out area. Chip it close and 1 putt your way out of there with your par. Otherwise you have to hit a perfect shot to the front middle or front right portion of the green and even then getting a 2 putt is difficult because of the slope and speed of the green.

-------------------------------

Now based on the above, and this only being 1 example, do you think this is excessive?

I sure do. What say you?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Yes. Sounds like a hole designed 100 years ago when greens rolled 6 max on the stimp

 

[mgranato]

Of course it is, that hole sounds retarded. The easiest thing to do to a course, hole, or green is to make it play "hard". Takes little to no imagination or skill. The hardest thing to do is to make it play better.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Yes. Sounds like a hole designed 100 years ago when greens rolled 6 max on the stimp

Greens on the PGA Tour are not supposed to have pin positions where the slope of the green is more than 3%. I've been told the max, for any green, should be no more than 4% (if they are like an 8 on the stimp or slower).

I recently did a study to find that in Orlando area...about 4 out of 18 pin positions on average violate this rule. I'd say that probably less than 1/2 the time it's the greenkeeper's fault for the pin position. But the majority of the time it's just a poorly designed green that either does not allow for any pin positions or just a select few pin positions that meet the criteria.

Probably my #1 gripe in course design...awful green designs.








3JACK

 

[softconsult]

I can think of at least 3 holes that fit that description at various courses in our league rotation of 23 here in NE Tennessee. We play some nice public courses, nice country clubs, and, well, courses designed by someone (unknown and unskilled) to fit into the former farmer's field or land. I bitch everytime I come to these holes. In these mountains, a small sloped green may fall off down 30 to 100 feet or more down the hill on 3 sides.

 

[EdStraker]

The hole is unfair based on the description.

I have played a couple of holes in the hilly areas of Calif that if you were above the hole, the putt would run off the green if you didn't sink the putt. One of the greens looked like Moby Dick was buried under it.

 

[mgranato]

Greens on the PGA Tour are not supposed to have pin positions where the slope of the green is more than 3%. I've been told the max, for any green, should be no more than 4% (if they are like an 8 on the stimp or slower).

I recently did a study to find that in Orlando area...about 4 out of 18 pin positions on average violate this rule. I'd say that probably less than 1/2 the time it's the greenkeeper's fault for the pin position. But the majority of the time it's just a poorly designed green that either does not allow for any pin positions or just a select few pin positions that meet the criteria.

Probably my #1 gripe in course design...awful green designs.









3JACK

Our state am this year was silly. On Thursday, the hardest ranked hole was an 8 iron par 3. On a well struck hoisted 8 iron that left a pitch mark within 12' of the hole, I had a 75 footer for my first putt. 10 of the pins were on a 3.5% slope or more with a green speed of 12.8 on brand new bermuda. They could have let everyone play their second from the 100 yard plate on every hole, and I doubt the scores would've been much different.

A new problem we're facing in Atlanta is the crossing over from bent to bermuda without altering the contours of the green complexes. I completely understand the finacial contraints, but it sure makes for some goofy golf at times. Woe is we!

 

[ekennedy]

Its not a new phenomena. There's a par three at the Country Club of Charleston that Ben Hogan claimed he never even tried to hit the green. Laid up short and made par most of the time, but never worse than 4. Long or to the sides would have been a big number, and someone once said that he had a pretty good idea where the ball was going.

Golf is about making the lowest number for 18 holes. It's extreme, but everyone plays the same hole.

 

[Brian Manzella]

So i play this course once in a while that will be remain nameless no matter how many times i will be asked and/or how many PM's i may receive on the subject i am not going to name.

ANYWAY

It is my belief that this course has borderline unplayable greens on many holes and some could even be transplanted into a US Open and be just as disruptive and i want to know if I'm being dramatic or being fair. Here is an example:

Par 3

-175-190 yards depending on front/middle/back pin position but generally plays around 180 yards. (championship tees are longer btw)
-Green is more of a rectangle, narrow and long
-Slopes back to front and left to right
-Protected by bunkers on both front left/right
-Has a false front / bail out front area before green
-Open area to the right of the green
-Trees and heavy rough left of the green
-Pin placement tends to be front left to middle left

The last few times i have played this hole i have had the following happen:

-Pulled left (twice). DEATH. Impossible to make par, just is. I landed a perfect pitch/flop shot that landed in the mini rough/fringe that gently popped out and it rolled past the hole and all the way down the slope to the fringe on other edge of green leaving about a 25-30 uphill/side hill putt.

-Went slightly long. Either sink the putt down the hill or you are left with at least a 5-7 foot uphill putt coming back at best. Generally with the speed of these greens it is closer to 10 foot or worse.

-Bailed out right. Had to pitch over the bunker and just not enough spin to get it to stay close, slope catches it and it rolls back towards the front of the green.

-------------------------------

Based on my experience above you really only have 1 play here and that is hit it short on purpose to the bail out area. Chip it close and 1 putt your way out of there with your par. Otherwise you have to hit a perfect shot to the front middle or front right portion of the green and even then getting a 2 putt is difficult because of the slope and speed of the green.

-------------------------------

Now based on the above, and this only being 1 example, do you think this is excessive?

I sure do. What say you?

Golf in 2011.

You can whine, but it is a waste of time.

Its not a new phenomena. There's a par three at the Country Club of Charleston that Ben Hogan claimed he never even tried to hit the green. Laid up short and made par most of the time, but never worse than 4. Long or to the sides would have been a big number, and someone once said that he had a pretty good idea where the ball was going.

Golf is about making the lowest number for 18 holes. It's extreme, but everyone plays the same hole.

A++++

 

[matt kluck]

Tough Par 3

Jim,
Sounds like #10 at Winged Foot only a bit shorter.
Best in golf,
MK

 

[DCgolf]

Golf is not always fair but it is equitable.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Our state am this year was silly. On Thursday, the hardest ranked hole was an 8 iron par 3. On a well struck hoisted 8 iron that left a pitch mark within 12' of the hole, I had a 75 footer for my first putt. 10 of the pins were on a 3.5% slope or more with a green speed of 12.8 on brand new bermuda. They could have let everyone play their second from the 100 yard plate on every hole, and I doubt the scores would've been much different.

A new problem we're facing in Atlanta is the crossing over from bent to bermuda without altering the contours of the green complexes. I completely understand the finacial contraints, but it sure makes for some goofy golf at times. Woe is we!

This doesn't surprise me in Atlanta, given how hilly it was there. Although my home course (Windermere) usually was pretty good with it. What's crazy is that in flat Orlando, it's really prevalent. And in The Villages, FL...every green is shaped like a potato chip.






3JACK

 

[dbl]

The hole is unfair based on the description.

I have played a couple of holes in the hilly areas of Calif that if you were above the hole, the putt would run off the green if you didn't sink the putt. One of the greens looked like Moby Dick was buried under it.

Me too! Bogey is a good score. If the greens havent been cut you stand a chance. Otherwise the ball goes off the green.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,
Sounds like #10 at Winged Foot only a bit shorter.
Best in golf,
MK

Very similar, just no bunker in front

 

[spktho]

Courses with holes like these is exactly why it took me so long to break 80 and I had just as tough a time staying below 80. I could make par on most of the holes, but make mistakes on the other holes and it easily turns into a double or triple.

 

[birdie_man]

Course design-wise, it does sound kind of odd. Probly boring to play (laying up on a par 3), & will likely slow down play.

Beyond that I like what was said. "Nothing you can do about it", "everyone plays the same hole" has got to be a good approach. From a 'playing golf' standpoint.

Load up the suggestions box, man.