NEW FREE PGA VIDEOS featuring Brian Manzella

[Richie3Jack]

Suppose you like flying it more than having it roll...will the Rule of 12 work? Or does it require using the shortest safe spot? With Brian's first example, he had two yards carry and 12 yards roll and the right choice was 6I. Suppose a person had a preferred safe zone for that shot at 7yards carry, would a -1 (SW?) be correct then?

You want a shorter safe spot because it will be easier to hit that spot than if it were off further in the distance. Hit the safe spot, let it roll up there like a putt and then have a short putt to get up and down.





3JACK

 

[niblick1]

Suppose you like flying it more than having it roll...will the Rule of 12 work? Or does it require using the shortest safe spot? With Brian's first example, he had two yards carry and 12 yards roll and the right choice was 6I. Suppose a person had a preferred safe zone for that shot at 7yards carry, would a -1 (SW?) be correct then?

Yes, or maybe a GW?

You want to pick a spot close, but I think you want to pick a very flat spot. if there were a little mound close, you wouldn't pick that on the green because a very slight miss in any direction would cause a big variation in end result.

 

[ggsjpc]

You want a shorter safe spot because it will be easier to hit that spot than if it were off further in the distance. Hit the safe spot, let it roll up there like a putt and then have a short putt to get up and down.





3JACK

Heck, you're getting ready for the club championship. Read that chip and make that sucker.

 

[Chip Putterman]

Think of it as CARRY and ROLL.
One part carry,two parts roll: SW
One part carry, three parts roll: 9 iron
One part carry, four parts roll: 8 iron
etc. etc.etc.

 

[dbl]

You want a shorter safe spot because it will be easier to hit that spot than if it were off further in the distance. Hit the safe spot, let it roll up there like a putt and then have a short putt to get up and down.
3JACK

Well not me, because I can't judge 30 or 80 feet of rollout as well as I can flying it there. Air is alot more consistent than contoured grass. And our greens have many more saddle shaped areas..whereas Brian's green was basically flat.

 

[dbl]

Or...for the people with a one club preference, say a GW, for Brian's brush technique, carry would just need to equal roll. Pretty simple calculation (if there is a safe landing area halfway there). However, in practice I find I prefer something like 2/3 carry 1/3 roll...but I am hitting down more on the ball.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Well not me, because I can't judge 30 or 80 feet of rollout as well as I can flying it there. Air is alot more consistent than contoured grass. And our greens have many more saddle shaped areas..whereas Brian's green was basically flat.

The rollout is figured out for you if the stimpmeter is of a decent speed and you're not on a very uphill or downhill lie (slower greens may require more club than the Rule of 12 dictates, faster greens may require less club, etc). That's why the Rule of 12 was created.

So, you want the 'safe zone' close because it's much easier to land it in the safe zone if it's closer than if it is far away.

For instance, say you have a chip that is 25 yards in total length. Let's say that the safe zone that is one yard on the green to the ball is 5 yards. Then 'Rule of 12' would say that you should use an 8-iron to hit this safe zone just a short distance away.

What you are saying is that in this instance, you want to hit the safe zone about 15 yards away. That would give you about a SW according to the Rule of 12.

If you have a harder time landing an 8-iron on the 'safe zone' from 5 yards away than you do with a SW from 15 yards away, then there's something seriously wrong.





3JACK

 

[dbl]

I'm saying watching an 8I roll out 20 yards has more chance of error than a ball that rolls less. That's for this golfer.

 

[cnadon]

snatching technique

These look very good!

And very familiar too! I was just watching Over and Out this week, so am glad to hear another version of it in the lob/flop video.

It's too bad the pga website design doesn't make it easy to bookmark these, but...I have snatched up the .flv files.

Any chance you'd reveal how to snatch these?

 

[Richie3Jack]

I'm saying watching an 8I roll out 20 yards has more chance of error than a ball that rolls less. That's for this golfer.

No, it does not if you have properly applied the Rule of 12.

The Rule Of 12 calculates for you what club is needed to get the right amount of roll.

The flaw in your thought is that you're not accounting carry.

If there was no carry involved or the carry for two shots was the same, then you would be right....the lesser the roll the lesser the chance for error.

But the more carry you add, your chances for error have greatly increased.

For instance, I was practicing this just a few hours ago. On one chip shot I used to hit a SW to chip with. But with the Rule of 12 it called for an 8-iron. Before I would probably have to land the SW around about 8 yards and let it roll. With the Rule of 12, I only had to land it to 3 yards. Also, with the chipping stroke used with the Rule of 12, it greatly eliminates the amount of backspin. Doing it the old way with the SW and having to carry it 8 yards, the ball is going to spin more, thus more chance of error (not to mention having to try and hit SW to 8-yards)





3JACK

 

[Damon Lucas]

Read the quote, Richie!

You are neglecting what the ball has to roll over as a factor...not all surfaces are the same in terms of speed, and slope.

So for some, varying the sw 'carry' is the more consistent option.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Read the quote, Richie!

You are neglecting what the ball has to roll over as a factor...not all surfaces are the same in terms of speed, and slope.

So for some, varying the sw 'carry' is the more consistent option.

Read my quotes in regards to green speed and slope:

'The rollout is figured out for you if the stimpmeter is of a decent speed and you're not on a very uphill or downhill lie (slower greens may require more club than the Rule of 12 dictates, faster greens may require less club, etc.' - Richie3Jack

and

'Found a neat little sidebar to the Rule of 12.

You can use it to get a good idea of the speed of the greens. If you go to the practice green and find a relatively flat service and execute the chip shot properly, if the ball goes way short and you need to use extra club, then you know the greens are slow. If the opposite happens, then you're playing on some faster greens.' - Richie3Jack


So, you do have to take those factors into account. If I'm doing the math and I've got a 7-iron and the green is slow and/or the slope is uphill, I may want to consider chipping with a 6-iron.

But if you can get the speed of the roll down somewhat, then I think it's much easier to hit say an 8-iron to a safe zone that is only 3 yards away versus hitting a SW to say 9 yards away (and hoping that the spin created with the SW is the right amount).

I do believe you have to go with what works best for you and usually being comfortable helps you execute better. But I believe there's a reason why the Rule of 12 is a very smart principle and if you're moving the safe zone to say 10 yards on the green instead of a 1 yard on the green, then you're really defeating its purpose.





3JACK

 

[Damon Lucas]

It is not about the maths though!!
There is some room for instinct, right brain application, and ideas that don't appeal to you this week.
Good luck with your search!

 

[Richie3Jack]

It is not about the maths though!!
There is some room for instinct, right brain application, and ideas that don't appeal to you this week.
Good luck with your search!

How is it not about math when the question at hand is about the Rule of 12 is about math?

Sure there's room for instinct and creativity, etc. And there's room for that if you apply the Rule of 12 correctly.

That's what we are really talking about, how the Rule of 12 was designed and why it was designed to have the safe zone not too far away from the collar of the green.

Hubert Green is arguably the greatest chipper/pitcher that ever lived and always chipped with a SW. But we are talking about a different method of chipping and pitching and why it was designed as such.





3JACK

 

[dbl]

Any chance you'd reveal how to snatch these?

If you use IE, you can grab them from the temporary internet files. For convenience, you might empty them out first via the pulldown menus Tools, Options, Delete Files (offline) or History (files).
Then go to the pga site and play the video.

Then go to the t.i. f area like
c:\documents and settings\user name\local settings\temporary internet files\content.ie5
or for Vista, :\users\etc

Look in the folders for some 50-60MB .flv files.

With firefox, it's harder but there are some plugins to grab the media.

 

[dbl]

No, it does not if you have properly applied the Rule of 12.

The Rule Of 12 calculates for you what club is needed to get the right amount of roll.

The flaw in your thought is that you're not accounting carry.
(snip)
For instance, I was practicing this just a few hours ago. On one chip shot I used to hit a SW to chip with. But with the Rule of 12 it called for an 8-iron. Before I would probably have to land the SW around about 8 yards and let it roll. With the Rule of 12, I only had to land it to 3 yards.

Also, with the chipping stroke used with the Rule of 12, it greatly eliminates the amount of backspin.

3JACK

Look, I don't want to take away from Brians' great advice on the Rule of 12. I am going to go out and try his tip from the video. I am familiar with his brush stroke, but I *do* tend to pitch most of my shots near the green. I choose this because I'm not a great lag putter, and a ball rolling from a long chip faces the same problems as a long lag putt, from my point of view.

I think the concept of roll/carry itself is beneficial is because I have mainly focused on a close-to-the-pin landing area and had never formally considered the breakdown of the shot that way.

Practice will pay off for anyone who will try and apply and get the feels down, as you have done.

After I practice, should I come across a long chip on a fairly flat green where I might feel safer about this, I may give it go and see if there are any more up n downs from long distance.

 

[welshdentist]

Hi all,

Is there any reason why people find it easier to open the face and hold onto it than to open the face then grip it?

As someone who gets a very steep forward leaning shaft, leading edge contact at impact with a chip, this seems to shallow me out some.

And why is this not taught more?

 

[RASWING]

I tried it

I tried it.
I tried it on quite many holes during practice yesterday. It worked fine i made a brush stroke style chip using the D-plane ( swing plane at the target, normal club face angle)2 ft back 2 ft through landed on a spot 1 yard on the green and each club rolled out a distance I put it in the incubator. So then i counted off the second part of the equation the roll rembered what i saw out of the clubs i used with that stroke pattern ( brush stroke chip 2 ft B and 2 ft Th).
Then the ball was rolling up to the hole sometimes past, and few went in however i was never short like i am when i just use my 60 degree wedge,
it will work I would just have to do home work on different grass types and thing of that sort. I noticed the closer i was to the green the lower lofted the club the further back off the green a higer lofted the club. All based on the flag and and a few other, this one is basically a feel and practice thing.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I noticed the closer i was to the green the lower lofted the club the further back off the green a higer lofted the club. All based on the flag and and a few other, this one is basically a feel and practice thing.

That's because the distance to your carry is longer (let's say 7 yards to 2 yards) and thus your increments of roll are longer.

The difference between the Rule of 12 and lag putting is that with lag putting you have to feel how long of a putting stroke you want to make. Also, with the longer putting stroke, you're more likely to mis-hit it. Again, provided the slope isn't too uphill or downhill and the green speed is decent, the Rule of 12 will calculate the roll for you and the chip shot stroke is small and easier to make good contact with. Just make the chip shot stroke, have it land on safe zone and watch it roll up to the hole.





3JACK

 

[dbl]

The difference between the Rule of 12 and lag putting is that with lag putting you have to feel how long of a putting stroke you want to make.

Thanks for pointing THAT out. No wonder (for me) lag putting is potentially more problematic than chipping or pitching.