New Laws/D-Plane/Trackman

[dsmith2296]

Trying to sort through pages of posts on Trackman and D-Plane, thought I would see if someone can explain succinctly the correlation between path, club face and AoA. - A simple chart like I used when I went to the Cassino before I memorized when to hit or stand in BlackJack.- Doesn't need to cover all permutations- just the basics.

For example, for a hypothetical player, a hypothetical path with a 6-iron is between 3-7 degrees in to out.

A hypothetical clubface is anywhere from -3 (closed) to +3 (open).

A hypothetical AoA is between -1 and -4.5.


So given an AoA of 4* and 2* open clubface, what would the path need to be to hit it straight?

Or given a 1* open clubface and a +7* path, what would the AoA need to be?

Can someone break this down for a 5th grader with just these 3 variables? Or do you necessarily need to bring in other variables?

 

[Richie3Jack]

So given an AoA of 4* and 2* open clubface, what would the path need to be to hit it straight?

I'm still a little fuzzy on this, but I believe the path would have to be +2 to hit a ball that flies straight. It would be a slight straight push.

Or given a 1* open clubface and a +7* path, what would the AoA need to be?

You better be hitting a driver because you need an AoA of +7* in order to hit that straight. You're pretty much going to hit a big hook with a +7* path and a +1* face.





3JACK

 

[dsmith2296]

I'm still a little fuzzy on this, but I believe the path would have to be +2 to hit a ball that flies straight. It would be a slight straight push.



You better be hitting a driver because you need an AoA of +7* in order to hit that straight. You're pretty much going to hit a big hook with a +7* path and a +1* face.





3JACK

Where did you get the math? What is the formula?

Also, if a clubface is closed, its a negative number, right? And this would mean closed to the TARGET line, right? A clubface can be open to the target line and closed to the path-- that's a push draw, right?

Perhaps my hypotheticals aren't reasonable. But I can somewhat feel my path fairly easily-- e.g. slightly (1-2), moderately (3-5), or drastically (6++) in-to-out. And I can tell if I had a closed clubface, but can't really determine the degree because I am confused about how the downwardness effects the closedness.

Example: Lets say I am hitting in-to-out 5 degrees-- my personal comfort zone. But I am hooking balls and trying to open up my clubface. Still having trouble hooking so would like to tinker around with my AoA. What do I do? Take a bigger divot or a thinnier one?

 

[Kevin Shields]

If you continue to swing 5 degrees in to out with a driver, the only way to hit it straight is to aim left and adjust the face or hit up 5 degrees.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Where did you get the math? What is the formula?

No real special formula. According to Trackman, if you're face is square to the target, then how far you swing left/right to hit the ball straight is dependent on the club you use and your AoA.

If you're using a wood, the degrees you swing left and right will match the degrees of the AoA in order to hit it straight because of the spin axis created by the wood.

So if you hit down -3 degrees with a driver, the face is square to the target, then you need to swing left 3 degrees. If you hit up 3* with a driver, the face is square to the target, then you need to swing right 3 degrees.

With irons, you take 1/2 of the AoA (providing the face is square). So if you're -4* with say a 6-iron, face is square, then to hit is straight you need to swing left 2*.

I just get a little confused when the face is not square. I know that if you want to hit a slight push and then draw it back, the clubface needs to be slightly open and the path needs to be in-to-out in relation to the face.



3JACK

 

[dsmith2296]

How does teeing the ball up on a par three effect AoA if you still hit down on it the same as you would off turf? Since the ball is higher in the air, would you tend to hit it LESS left than otherwise, all other things remaining the same?

 

[bax1865]

Whats the point?

At what point of the impact is the measurement of the face angle being calculated as far as being open or closed? Is it at the moment of contact or the moment of the ball seperation from the face of the club?

 

[dsmith2296]

With irons, you take 1/2 of the AoA (providing the face is square). So if you're -4* with say a 6-iron, face is square, then to hit is straight you need to swing left 2*.


3JACK

Ok, so say you're on a Par 3 and the pin is tucked to the right. Could that be more of a situation where you would be more likely to tee the ball way down, aim straight and take a nice divot?...whereas if the pin were tucked to the left you might want to tee the ball higher and more in front, aim straight and 'pick' the ball off the tee?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Ok, so say you're on a Par 3 and the pin is tucked to the right. Could that be more of a situation where you would be more likely to tee the ball way down, aim straight and take a nice divot?...whereas if the pin were tucked to the left you might want to tee the ball higher and more in front, aim straight and 'pick' the ball off the tee?

Take a look at this diagram provided in Trackman's latest newsletter

Basically there's a -5* AoA with an iron here with a face angle at 0.0* to the target. In the top 'swing', the golfer has a 0.0* path. In the bottom 'swing' the golfer has properly swung -2.5* to the left.

Because the top 'swing' is further to the right of where it needs to be to hit it straight, that should provide a push and/or hook.

Trackman suggests that you should move the ball further back for a draw because the AoA will get steeper, meaning to hit it straight the golfer needs to swing left, but if they have their 'normal' path they will impart a hook spin on the ball. Conversely, move the ball more forward and that lessens the AoA and is likely condusive to a fade spin.




3JACK

 

[dsmith2296]

3JACK,

Above you said,

"So if you hit down -3 degrees with a driver, the face is square to the target, then you need to swing left 3 degrees. If you hit up 3* with a driver, the face is square to the target, then you need to swing right 3 degrees."

So deductive reasoning tells me that if you are hitting down -3 with a driver and aim straight, the ball with go right (that's why you say aim left). Conversley, if you hit up +3 with a driver and aim straight the ball will go left (that's why you say aim right).

I was extrapolating the reasoning to an iron shot. Aim straight with a square face and take a big divot-e.g. -4* down- the ball goes right. Or tee the ball up and pick it off the tee- e.g. +4 up- the ball goes left. Sound logic?

 

[Burner]

If you continue to swing 5 degrees in to out with a driver, the only way to hit it straight is to aim left and adjust the face or hit up 5 degrees.

I would remain eternally grateful if someone could tell me just how to programme these D Plane exactitudes into my swing on the golf course; before the ball is hit that is.

How many of us can truly see a one degree closed club face when we are looking at it?
How many of us have any real idea as to how many degrees we are hitting up or down on the ball in practise? How many degrees in to out, or out to in?

I, certainly, can aim left and swing left and hope for a straight shot. Yeh! Pull straight left and OB.

Do we honestly think that anyone, a touring Pro even, could call his degrees at set up and then execute?

Am I alone in this?

 

[softconsult]

Burner, I was just going to say the same thing. How in the world, short of being in a Trackman session, would you know whether your path was +3 or +1. I can see the value in doing a Trackman session and using the feedback to ingrain the feeling of say hitting up on the Driver, but without it I'm at a loss as to how I would use the information with any precision on the golf course.

I was hitting 9 irons on my local shag range this afternoon. Worked on several things including fades, draws, and punch shots. I have no idea of my path, only the ballflight results for the various swings.

As I read some of these posts, it seems to me that there is a danger for less seasoned players of getting lost in technical analysis.

 

[Richie3Jack]

3JACK,

Above you said,

"So if you hit down -3 degrees with a driver, the face is square to the target, then you need to swing left 3 degrees. If you hit up 3* with a driver, the face is square to the target, then you need to swing right 3 degrees."

So deductive reasoning tells me that if you are hitting down -3 with a driver and aim straight, the ball with go right (that's why you say aim left). Conversley, if you hit up +3 with a driver and aim straight the ball will go left (that's why you say aim right).

You've got the idea. Although you're likely to hit a hook if you hit down and 'aim straight' with a driver and likely to hit a slice if you hit up and 'aim straight' with a driver.

Ever hear about TGM'ers talking about how they hit a draw? Usually they will say they move the ball back and get the handle forward. Why? Because when you move it back, it makes your AoA more downward. Thus if they move the ball back, handle forward and take their normal swing their path will be to the right of where it needs to be to hit it straight and they are likely to hit some sort of draw.

I was extrapolating the reasoning to an iron shot. Aim straight with a square face and take a big divot-e.g. -4* down- the ball goes right. Or tee the ball up and pick it off the tee- e.g. +4 up- the ball goes left. Sound logic?

You can't hit up with the iron and hit a quality shot.

With irons the spin axis is different than a ball struck with woods. So the horizontal plane needs to be 1/2 of the AoA with irons only. Hit down -4* with a 6-iron, then you need to swing left by 2*. Hit -9* down with a lob wedge, and you need to swing left by -4.5* to hit it straight.



3JACK

 

[vjsinger]

Burner, I was just going to say the same thing. How in the world, short of being in a Trackman session, would you know whether your path was +3 or +1. I can see the value in doing a Trackman session and using the feedback to ingrain the feeling of say hitting up on the Driver, but without it I'm at a loss as to how I would use the information with any precision on the golf course.

I was hitting 9 irons on my local shag range this afternoon. Worked on several things including fades, draws, and punch shots. I have no idea of my path, only the ballflight results for the various swings.

As I read some of these posts, it seems to me that there is a danger for less seasoned players of getting lost in technical analysis.

This is true. For newbies, obviously you shouldn't focus on it as there are too many other things to work on. In the right hands(instructors,really good players) it's very useful. I played with two players yesterday that understand it and and can apply it and diagnose, solve etc. on the spot. The 2 players just happened to be Brian and his student.

 

[Erik_K]

I would remain eternally grateful if someone could tell me just how to programme these D Plane exactitudes into my swing on the golf course; before the ball is hit that is.

How many of us can truly see a one degree closed club face when we are looking at it?
How many of us have any real idea as to how many degrees we are hitting up or down on the ball in practise? How many degrees in to out, or out to in?

I, certainly, can aim left and swing left and hope for a straight shot. Yeh! Pull straight left and OB.

Do we honestly think that anyone, a touring Pro even, could call his degrees at set up and then execute?

Am I alone in this?

You bring up some excellent points and questions. However, I will say that (in my opinion) the Trackman analysis isn't necessarily supposed to get us overly analytical with how open or closed the face is, or by how much we are swing in/out or how down you are hitting the 6 iron.

Rather, it seems to be helping to 'de-program' what many of us have been reading about over the last several years (decades, really).

One of things I needed to learn was that I do need to swing more left and if I pull the ball way to to the left, it's not 100% path related. If I miss left, often there wasn't much of a divot taken. John Harvesty told me that I needed to hit more down on the ball and this allows me to swing left, but hit a fade.

Erik

 

[Richie3Jack]

How many of us can truly see a one degree closed club face when we are looking at it?
How many of us have any real idea as to how many degrees we are hitting up or down on the ball in practise? How many degrees in to out, or out to in?

I, certainly, can aim left and swing left and hope for a straight shot. Yeh! Pull straight left and OB.

Do we honestly think that anyone, a touring Pro even, could call his degrees at set up and then execute?

Am I alone in this?

No. I think it's important to work on improving your clubface control and I believe eliminating a flip is a huge step in accomplishing that.

But it's a lot of trial and error and D-Plane can lead a golfer in the right direction to hitting consistent, straight shots and help them solve problems based on what they are doing with the ball flight.

For instance I *believe at this moment* that if you want to hit it straight from an uphill lie or a lie with the ball above your feet, you need to swing left to some degree. It's something I experimented and there's a bit of guess work. Today I ran into this situation and guess pretty close to being right and the ball that was way above my feet went straight and I got a GIR.

If you're hitting it pretty straight on a fairly consistent basis, I wouldn't change where you're swinging. But if you're hitting a big hook with straight divots, then you may need to start swinging left.

Trial and error is nothing new in golf. Hogan did it in creating his swing and then writing '5 Lessons.'




3JACK

 

[dsmith2296]

I just want my face angle open to the target line but closed to a slightly in-to-out path and to take a nice thud sounding divot. For me, Trackman would probably say MY pured shot with, say, a 6-iron is 2.5* clubface angle, 5* path and -4* AoA.

I don't care about the actual numbers though, but I know what it feels like if I swing too in-to-out or if my clubface is closed or if I get to steep or too shallow.

 

[dannyc]

I would remain eternally grateful if someone could tell me just how to programme these D Plane exactitudes into my swing on the golf course; before the ball is hit that is.

How many of us can truly see a one degree closed club face when we are looking at it?
How many of us have any real idea as to how many degrees we are hitting up or down on the ball in practise? How many degrees in to out, or out to in?

I, certainly, can aim left and swing left and hope for a straight shot. Yeh! Pull straight left and OB.

Do we honestly think that anyone, a touring Pro even, could call his degrees at set up and then execute?

Am I alone in this?

the numbers help take the guesswork out.

 

[Burner]

the numbers help take the guesswork out.

Sorry Danny but factoring the numbers in on the golf course is pure guesswork; in my humble opinion.

The numbers are best left to a trackman session and trackman sessions are best left to the guys who could really benefit from such analysis.

99.90% of us do not fit this profile.

 

[dsmith2296]

Sorry Danny but factoring the numbers in on the golf course is pure guesswork; in my humble opinion.

The numbers are best left to a trackman session and trackman sessions are best left to the guys who could really benefit from such analysis.

99.90% of us do not fit this profile.

Go try it and post your results!